Torsional Rigidity
Discussion
deadscoob said:
When we bought our first Westie the Westie salesman described Ultimas as mobile chicanes.
Err, yeah, ok.
Thats strange isnt it....Err, yeah, ok.
I remember watching Ted Marlow lap several Westies twice at Mallory park in 1989 in a 12 lap race...
There seems to be an awful lot of chassis experts on here all of a sudden, as far as i see it as a layman, you have to compromise a little as the cars have to do so many things ie road car, track car race etc. Im sure the factory could stiffen it up but then you would have people moaning that its too stiff for road use.
The beauty of ownership is we all have different views of what is right and what is not, the factory must be doing something right as they still continue selling these great cars!!!!
When any of you experts have build something to rival the factory 720 monster maybe we might listen.
no-one is disputing that an Ultima is a brillient product, but I personally agree with Clives views that it can be improved significantly and the chassis has effectivelly stood still for 15years, i do however understand the reasons and even agree with them as ease of build and looks are a massive benefit of the ultima kit... but its the potential for simple mods for significant gains being blindly rejected is the message clive is trying to put forward in a rather clumsy way.
Now DISPITE this I regularly recommend people buy or build an Ultima, why? because its the best kit out there currently by a country mile IMO. would I have another absolutelly but it would be modified for things that are proven to work and things that id like to see.... but thats kind of the point with kit cars IMHO, that you build the car YOUR way and not as everyone else.
So lets not get lost in personal rows.
Now DISPITE this I regularly recommend people buy or build an Ultima, why? because its the best kit out there currently by a country mile IMO. would I have another absolutelly but it would be modified for things that are proven to work and things that id like to see.... but thats kind of the point with kit cars IMHO, that you build the car YOUR way and not as everyone else.
So lets not get lost in personal rows.
I can only admit that the guys at Ultima are very helpfull and most important honest about their products. Like most people will know by now, I'm busy restoring the mk3 sport. Ted very openly discussed different things with me concerning engine, bodywork etc.
Even though they knew I wasn't going to buy a complete kit, just some bits and pieces, he took the time to answer a lot of questions and giving tips.
He admitted that in those days the bodywork moulds weren't that accurate and I needed to shift things around a bit to make it look right. That are thing I appreciate, not that I was happy with the solution he offered, but on the other hand he also didn't know my skills. I decided to straighten the car out. I can also see a lot of changes have been made for the chassis, and what I have seen so far, Ultima really improved things to mount the bodywork.
One thing about the bodywork which is ideal for lining up things is starting with the sidepods, and adjust everything else to these two parts. Big disadvantage to that is in my opinion, I mentioned Darwin in this, that this part is very vulnerable and prone to roadside damage. To replace it you need to take the whole car apart. That is a real bad design IMHO.
The Mk3 chassis is lighter, and only one change in to the GTR chassis I don't understand is the removal of the crossmembering in the frontsection of the cockpit. Maybe this could be improved to regain some of the torsional stiffness.
And for the wish of a total stiff chassis, I doubt if anybody driving an Ultima could drive the car to that level that he would benefit from it, that he could translate it into suspensiontweaks to furthermore gain time on the track. However you would be unable to drive the car on tracks like the Nordschleife or any normal Brittish road famous for their smoothness if you had the chassis stiff as......
Even though they knew I wasn't going to buy a complete kit, just some bits and pieces, he took the time to answer a lot of questions and giving tips.
He admitted that in those days the bodywork moulds weren't that accurate and I needed to shift things around a bit to make it look right. That are thing I appreciate, not that I was happy with the solution he offered, but on the other hand he also didn't know my skills. I decided to straighten the car out. I can also see a lot of changes have been made for the chassis, and what I have seen so far, Ultima really improved things to mount the bodywork.
One thing about the bodywork which is ideal for lining up things is starting with the sidepods, and adjust everything else to these two parts. Big disadvantage to that is in my opinion, I mentioned Darwin in this, that this part is very vulnerable and prone to roadside damage. To replace it you need to take the whole car apart. That is a real bad design IMHO.
The Mk3 chassis is lighter, and only one change in to the GTR chassis I don't understand is the removal of the crossmembering in the frontsection of the cockpit. Maybe this could be improved to regain some of the torsional stiffness.
And for the wish of a total stiff chassis, I doubt if anybody driving an Ultima could drive the car to that level that he would benefit from it, that he could translate it into suspensiontweaks to furthermore gain time on the track. However you would be unable to drive the car on tracks like the Nordschleife or any normal Brittish road famous for their smoothness if you had the chassis stiff as......
.............you can pick holes in anyones work if you really try, whether it's grammatical errors in a simple forum post or the last detail in a Supercar there's one thing thats for certain 'yer can't please everyone all the time !! ... you pays your money and takes your chance'!!
Factory,....... good or bad 'Ultima' is still very much a buzz-word around here so ongoing support and development must still be welcome ?
Factory,....... good or bad 'Ultima' is still very much a buzz-word around here so ongoing support and development must still be welcome ?
spatz said:
no it is good to straighten things up and I think closing this topic would be the very best way to end this discussion.
you could close it, another one would get stated the next time someone from Australia has a question about passing the torsional rigidity testing that we are required to do..... ezakimak said:
spatz said:
no it is good to straighten things up and I think closing this topic would be the very best way to end this discussion.
you could close it, another one would get stated the next time someone from Australia has a question about passing the torsional rigidity testing that we are required to do..... edited to add that reading it again I see they have removed some of the comments
Edited by andygtt on Friday 12th November 07:33
Adam GTR said:
Hi all,
Can anyone tell me the results of torsional rigidity test conducted on the Ultima chassis.
West Australian regulations require a minimum of 6000Nm for anything over 2.0lt engine capacity.
Has anyone had a test conducted in Australia ?
Thanks in advance
Adam
had a verbal to me that if a chassis is made from aluminium there is an issue in aussie to prove the chassis retains a certain % of this figure after extensive usage...Can anyone tell me the results of torsional rigidity test conducted on the Ultima chassis.
West Australian regulations require a minimum of 6000Nm for anything over 2.0lt engine capacity.
Has anyone had a test conducted in Australia ?
Thanks in advance
Adam
true...partly true...b
ks..????craig7l said:
Adam GTR said:
Hi all,
Can anyone tell me the results of torsional rigidity test conducted on the Ultima chassis.
West Australian regulations require a minimum of 6000Nm for anything over 2.0lt engine capacity.
Has anyone had a test conducted in Australia ?
Thanks in advance
Adam
had a verbal to me that if a chassis is made from aluminium there is an issue in aussie to prove the chassis retains a certain % of this figure after extensive usage...Can anyone tell me the results of torsional rigidity test conducted on the Ultima chassis.
West Australian regulations require a minimum of 6000Nm for anything over 2.0lt engine capacity.
Has anyone had a test conducted in Australia ?
Thanks in advance
Adam
true...partly true...b
ks..????cant add anything in regard to the chassis i think you are talking about....The Australian distributor may know more.
however i think, if memory serves em correct, the automotive engineer that was advising on the aluminum uprights i'm using on a race car suggested that 95MPA was the figure we had to be under for the fatigue limit of the alloy. Ultimate tensile strength is somewhere around 240MPA i think....
durability is something i intend to monitor, with regular crack testing
Ryan
however i think, if memory serves em correct, the automotive engineer that was advising on the aluminum uprights i'm using on a race car suggested that 95MPA was the figure we had to be under for the fatigue limit of the alloy. Ultimate tensile strength is somewhere around 240MPA i think....
durability is something i intend to monitor, with regular crack testing
Ryan
The aluminium chassis on my 360 appears to be MIG style production welding.
I have never heard of any deformation due to normal use without impact that is.
Lotus has a deformation issue of the chassis during excessive duty cycle testing , due in part to the thin wall extrusions used not the bonded joints.
I have never heard of any deformation due to normal use without impact that is.
Lotus has a deformation issue of the chassis during excessive duty cycle testing , due in part to the thin wall extrusions used not the bonded joints.
test test 
you did some testings for such "small" company, great work.
I also think its a lot work to change things acceptable for the market wich also changes and make it as a standard (as much as you can speak of such)
Still love your product specially when your company went also more in the LS engines and stuff.
glad your company still exists and you still make that lovely utterly fast car for a "affordable" price.
GTRene
you did some testings for such "small" company, great work.
I also think its a lot work to change things acceptable for the market wich also changes and make it as a standard (as much as you can speak of such)
Still love your product specially when your company went also more in the LS engines and stuff.
glad your company still exists and you still make that lovely utterly fast car for a "affordable" price.
GTRene
I did have a look at the website with the chassis mods and from my inexperienced eye the theory seemed sound.
If the owner decides to mod their own vehicle to 'improve' it in their eyes then I guess this is okay.
I would have thought for road use that a little flexibility in the chassis would make life for all the other components a little easier- not to mention the human driving it.
As I get older the need to bash myself about in a rock hard springed rattle box seems to be diminishing and is being replaced by the need for sure footed handling erring on the side of comfort - sort of.
If the owner decides to mod their own vehicle to 'improve' it in their eyes then I guess this is okay.
I would have thought for road use that a little flexibility in the chassis would make life for all the other components a little easier- not to mention the human driving it.
As I get older the need to bash myself about in a rock hard springed rattle box seems to be diminishing and is being replaced by the need for sure footed handling erring on the side of comfort - sort of.
Bombardier said:
I would have thought for road use that a little flexibility in the chassis would make life for all the other components a little easier- not to mention the human driving it.
Unfortunatelly the opposite is true, a stiffer chasis with good geo etc can run lower spring pressures etc and still handle as well or better, this is what Jay did with his car ie better handling and better ride.Incidentally he has turned it into an awsome machine now with some major mods to it, however these will now probably stay private due to the response and correspondance he got previously.
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