Superchargers.

[chuntington101]

I was just looking into supercharging the SBC when I came across these and read a few articles on them. They take 2 different approaches to supercharging and I just wondered if you guys thought any of the systems might work in a GTR.

First is the Vortec charger for carb fed engines. www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/yourcar/small_block.html

HOT ROD mag did a test on a GM Performance 383CID unit and saw a very safe 677bhp on pump gas and about 8psi (link below). The main concern is, is the unit mounted too far in front of the engine to fit in the GTR? Still would be a nice compact unit to use. And if you wanted to turn the boost up you could easily stick a charge cooler on there and with some low comp pistons, you could be looking at some very big numbers. Also the system looks to be very versatile and the tuning is easier than with the roots system. Also, I think this system could be adapted to work with people running EFI. Any ideas?

The second was a Whipple unit. www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1164

This unit is in the marine section but should work on a road engine. Again the concern is the pulley arrangement but I think it is a little more compact than the Vortec.

Here is the HOT ROD article on the respective products.
Vortec. http://hotrod.com/techarticles/79738/
Whipple. http://hotrod.com/techarticles/52182/

I understand that you would need to build your engine pretty well but that should be a simple thing to do, low comp pistons and some rods and you will be well away. Anyway what do you guys think?

Thanks Chris.

PS. For real BLING and power take a look at this. www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1179 two blowers on one engine! HEHE.

[steve_D]

Biggest problem here is the G50.
A charger will just up the HP and torque across the whole range which will just mash the 'box.
Lower torque and higher revs is the way to go as demonstrated by G_man.

Steve

[Stig]

steve_D said:

Biggest problem here is the G50. A charger will just up the HP and torque across the whole range which will just mash the 'box. Lower torque and higher revs is the way to go as demonstrated by G_man. Steve

Funny, I don't remember 'mashing' my G50 with my Weiand 177 Steve?

Lower torque and higher revs may be 'a' way to go, but you can also add 'regular rebuilds' to it.

[chuntington101]

Very good point there Steve and nice answer Stig. Is there anyone over here that could build the ‘box to take the extra torque? I have found a company in the states that will build these boxes and has sold them to US customers with Ultimas. I think the company was porschergears.com, but the guy (Roger Brown) there was very helpful. He said that the G50/52 from the turbo could take over 700lbs ft (I have read about a GT2 that was making over that on the stock box). In addition to that Rodger said that their gears where 30% stronger, thanks to reduced count and thicker tooth base than stock. This would make a pretty bullet proof ‘box. He sent me a basic breakdown of what he would recommend and it totalled to about $9,700, around £5,700.

But the main point is will these cahergers fit? You can always “map” the torque curve out a bit if it comes a bit of a problem. Also with a blower, you can run higher bhp and torque on pump fuel. And they are much more driveable.

So come on all, will they fit?

Thanks again Chris.

[eliot]

Roots blowers are good for immediate torque, but you cant intercool the weiand, the Wipple's by all accounts are very good - very high effeciency.

Except for ease of installation and ability to intercool, Centrifugal blowers are the worse of both worlds (imo), lag of a turbo and the parasitic drag of a blower.

Ive been looking at all three and have decided on turbos because they are easy to tweak to higher boosts or to place the boost where you want it, plus the fabrication challenge appeals to me.

Dont forget about boost retard and fuel enrichment either, these are crucial to the health of your engine.

Eliot.
www.mez.co.uk/turbo1.html

[atom290]

The great advantage of a roots blower is its ability to achieve great boost at low engine rpm. Since its volumetric efficiency only fluctuates slightly its flow is generally proportional to rpm. Another great advantage is its simple in design. There are relatively few moving parts, so should lead to a good degree of reliability. And lastly there is little or no surge and what there is can be reduced by fitting a bypass valve.

The main disadvantage is heat. Eaton blowers, I have one of these ,are one of the best at thermal efficiency but unless you make great allowances for the dissipation of the heat build up you will sap any power you are looking to gain. This has been my problem as I have seen charge temps of around 90 deg c.

The other issue is noise! It has its benefits, you could never be accused of not being heard, but places like Castle Combe will pull you on a fly-by reading.

[GreenV8S]

The screw type positive displacement blowers have internal compression which makes them far more efficient (so less heat related problems at high boost) while retaining the nice low down torque characteristics. But they seem to cost a lot more.

[steve_D]

Stig said:

steve_D said: Biggest problem here is the G50. A charger will just up the HP and torque across the whole range which will just mash the 'box. Lower torque and higher revs is the way to go as demonstrated by G_man. Steve Funny, I don't remember 'mashing' my G50 with my Weiand 177 Steve? Lower torque and higher revs may be 'a' way to go, but you can also add 'regular rebuilds' to it.

Agreed Chris, but I was basing my comment more on the content of the 'Engine question' thread where the other Chris (chuntington101) has been very active and the HP figures being discussed ranged from 700 to 2400.
You have proved that 600/650 is OK but I doubt the 'box would take 800+ with the same ratio of torque/HP hence my thoughts that lower torque + higher revs would arrive at the desired HP without over stressing the 'box.

Steve

[mkoch1]

Came across this site over on the ls1tech forum, does a great job explaining the different types of forced induction and the pros and cons or each

www.coloradocobras.com/whipple/superchargers/forced-induction.html

mark

[Stig]

steve_D said:

Stig said: steve_D said: Biggest problem here is the G50. A charger will just up the HP and torque across the whole range which will just mash the 'box. Lower torque and higher revs is the way to go as demonstrated by G_man. Steve Funny, I don't remember 'mashing' my G50 with my Weiand 177 Steve? Lower torque and higher revs may be 'a' way to go, but you can also add 'regular rebuilds' to it. Agreed Chris, but I was basing my comment more on the content of the 'Engine question' thread where the other Chris (chuntington101) has been very active and the HP figures being discussed ranged from 700 to 2400. You have proved that 600/650 is OK but I doubt the 'box would take 800+ with the same ratio of torque/HP hence my thoughts that lower torque + higher revs would arrive at the desired HP without over stressing the 'box. Steve

Ah, haven't been following the other thread As for putting that sort of power in an Ultima (or any other car for that matter) it's entirely pointless IMHO.

[chuntington101]

thanks all. its good to see everyone getting involved and putting their opinions forward. steve you are total right on the whole torque thing. high rpms and less torque would be the most sensiable way of saving the box. but you have to love torque. and its is cheaper with these engine to produce reilable power than it is with a screemer. do you know what compresion ratio the 640/700bhp AS unit runs?

i understand the +/- points of both types of supercharging and also turbos. IMO the vortec style blowers are the best compromise bettwen a turbo and a roots type blower. they also enable easier inlet cooling than the roots, which will let you run even higher boost. also, with what i think could be quite simple (as it always does in your head) you could incorperate a "bleed" valve to limit the boost presure.

but the newer whipple twin screw chargers are not that far behind now. they offer all the lower down torque of the roots, but better top end of the vortec. another addvantage is whipple are designing intercooler systems as well wich will only make this type even better.

thanks to you all again, but still the first question remains unanswered. will any of these systems fit and work?

thanks Chris.

PS. steve, i just like to put what little knowlage i have to others and also pick up as much as poss, thats why I have been so active on other threads.

[mkoch1]

[quote=chuntington101]
thanks to you all again, but still the first question remains unanswered. will any of these systems fit and work?
quote]

turbo fits nicely in my canam


mark

[GreenV8S]

That looks dead sexy!

Do you find it suffers from fuel starvation?

[just dave]

GreenV8S said:

That looks dead sexy! Do you find it suffers from fuel starvation?

I would guess only after an hour!!!

Dave

[GreenV8S]

just dave said:

I would guess only after an hour!!!

(The injectors don't seem to be wired up!)

[mkoch1]

Car's not done, none of the engine bay wiring is complete. With a surge tank , big EFI fuel pump,and -10 lines I hope I don't see any fuel issues.

mark

[mkoch1]

here is a shot of the intake tube for the guy who just emailed me. No IC, I will be using meth injection.



mark

[davejw]

Hello,

Looks great but was wondering about an intercooler or if space is tight, water injection?

Dave.

[mkoch1]

No intercooler, I'll be using methonal injection, similar to water, but adds octane.

mark

[chuntington101]

looking very good there mkoch1. when do you thing you will have the thing done by? also what sort of nymbers are you looking at? and is the spec of the engine, built or not? i have sean that these engines are prooving very tunable, especialy when using forced induction!

thanks Chris.