wot 1000bhp looks like!
Discussion
for those who don't know, i'm in interloper from the TVR (Griffith) forums. I've been tracing a TVR engine that came out of Neil Gregory's gorgeous Ultima as i'm putting it in my griff. whilst talking to some of you on here i mentioned the fact that the car has 1000bhp and 4WD. not supprising i suppose that you're interested so here's some pics.
car is prepared by chris at zcars in hull. these are the guys that do all the bike engine conversions. mini's elise,exige etc. and now ultima's!
they've done a fab SYMPATHIC job and the car lends itself to this conversion beautifully. should be going for the record early next year. 0-100-0.
hope that works...dream on guys
BTW the car will be on show at autosport in january and chris will be happy to chat to anyone!
i'll be there to see the completed car!
>>> Edited by Guillotine on Saturday 27th November 17:42
car is prepared by chris at zcars in hull. these are the guys that do all the bike engine conversions. mini's elise,exige etc. and now ultima's!
they've done a fab SYMPATHIC job and the car lends itself to this conversion beautifully. should be going for the record early next year. 0-100-0.
hope that works...dream on guys
BTW the car will be on show at autosport in january and chris will be happy to chat to anyone!
i'll be there to see the completed car!
>>> Edited by Guillotine on Saturday 27th November 17:42
So this is a twin motorcycle engine Ultima GTR. How much does it weigh? How does the 4wd system works on this GTR? Are there any difference between this 4wd system in comparison to other 4wd on Subarus and Evos? Any pictures of the whole car? Also, any specs on the engine and its developer?
it's not cheap (and its not mine!) and its beautifully built.
each engine gives a safe 450bhp i believe, and i suppose i should have said 1000bhp/tonne. think the car weights around 800kg (inc 4WD).
i should also say the car wasn't ready in these photo's.
i see from your tag that your car holds the record. as a standard production car i guess that it still will. this one is clearly modified!
but the record will be broken one day...they always are, at whatever level, it's just a question of money!
each engine gives a safe 450bhp i believe, and i suppose i should have said 1000bhp/tonne. think the car weights around 800kg (inc 4WD).
i should also say the car wasn't ready in these photo's.
i see from your tag that your car holds the record. as a standard production car i guess that it still will. this one is clearly modified!
but the record will be broken one day...they always are, at whatever level, it's just a question of money!
Those modded bike engines give silly power when boosted..... Clives one is going to hit 350+bhp easy and there are bikes out there with 500bhp.
I think radical get 252bhp out of them normally aspirated.
However I very much doubt the torque will go past 500ft'lb.
Sayin that I expect it will be unbearably noisy and not very civilised.... but as a track weapon it will be awsome.
As for the record... well I expect quite a few cars have gone quicker, BUT this is the record for a standard production car not a special... so I think Gman is safe... for now!
I think radical get 252bhp out of them normally aspirated.
However I very much doubt the torque will go past 500ft'lb.
Sayin that I expect it will be unbearably noisy and not very civilised.... but as a track weapon it will be awsome.
As for the record... well I expect quite a few cars have gone quicker, BUT this is the record for a standard production car not a special... so I think Gman is safe... for now!
I have raced against bike engine radical and Caterhams
all with mega horsepower, all were very slow in a straight line - ie no power.
Is your horse power a thorough bred or just a shetland pony ... There are many an engine builder quotes exaggerated HP which is just rubbish, bike engine builders and jap engine tuners are the worst cause there would get no business if they told the truth
Also never seen any bike engine car last more than 1/2 hour on the track ..
My doubts come from a simple look at the exhaust system which looks diy and therefore good for 200 bhp ...
All opinions of my own
G MAN
all with mega horsepower, all were very slow in a straight line - ie no power.
Is your horse power a thorough bred or just a shetland pony ... There are many an engine builder quotes exaggerated HP which is just rubbish, bike engine builders and jap engine tuners are the worst cause there would get no business if they told the truth
Also never seen any bike engine car last more than 1/2 hour on the track ..
My doubts come from a simple look at the exhaust system which looks diy and therefore good for 200 bhp ...
All opinions of my own
G MAN
I think you're being very dismissive of this, G MAN.
I don't know who is/has developed the engines for this application but I do know that Holeshot's efforts are very impressive and from feedback of purchasers and owners, pretty reliable. Of course any engine that is tuned to such a high level is going to require a refresh every so often but I suspect your Chevvy will too! Especially if said engine sees a lot of track time.
I've never heard anyone refer to a Turbo'd Radical as slow - just check out the Nurburgring video and lap time! OK, it won't have the punch of a huge V8 coming out of tighter corners but there again it'll probably be going into them quicker than an Ultima can manage too.
I can't see much wrong with the exhaust system, it looks ok especially considering the fact that this is a turbo'd installation on two four-cylinder engines. Without a dyno, several different exhausts and an expert on hand who's to say how effective they are?
I think it's a great concept and I'll be very interested to see how it performs. Good luck to them!
>> Edited by jamieheasman on Sunday 28th November 18:46
I don't know who is/has developed the engines for this application but I do know that Holeshot's efforts are very impressive and from feedback of purchasers and owners, pretty reliable. Of course any engine that is tuned to such a high level is going to require a refresh every so often but I suspect your Chevvy will too! Especially if said engine sees a lot of track time.
I've never heard anyone refer to a Turbo'd Radical as slow - just check out the Nurburgring video and lap time! OK, it won't have the punch of a huge V8 coming out of tighter corners but there again it'll probably be going into them quicker than an Ultima can manage too.
I can't see much wrong with the exhaust system, it looks ok especially considering the fact that this is a turbo'd installation on two four-cylinder engines. Without a dyno, several different exhausts and an expert on hand who's to say how effective they are?
I think it's a great concept and I'll be very interested to see how it performs. Good luck to them!
>> Edited by jamieheasman on Sunday 28th November 18:46
jamieheasman said:
I think you're being very dismissive of this, G MAN
I've never heard anyone refer to a Turbo'd Radical as slow - just check out the Nurburgring video and lap time! OK, it won't have the punch of a huge V8 coming out of tighter corners but there again it'll probably be going into them quicker than an Ultima can manage too.
Jamie
You have just summed the problem, a bike engine is what say 50kgs two are 100kg, that in a car that weights between 800-1000 kgs is much less of a percentage than say a radical or Caterham so the gain in light weight engine is neglated, so in my humble opinion the cornering speeds will be as close as dam it the same.
But I have over 6 litres to propel me forwards
G MAN
diffs were a problem, they spent alot of time building there own spec.
4wd means better braking (diffs act like abs) and its its using HUGE Lambo calipers anyway. also better traction.
centre of gravity and weight is improved.
not sure about torque...and there are twin intercoolers in the rear quarters! thet'll hekp with power/torque.
i reckon it'll be quick.
4wd means better braking (diffs act like abs) and its its using HUGE Lambo calipers anyway. also better traction.
centre of gravity and weight is improved.
not sure about torque...and there are twin intercoolers in the rear quarters! thet'll hekp with power/torque.
i reckon it'll be quick.
i think its a ace idea. anyone dissing it at this early stage is either stupid or a little scared. but there is still only one way to proove which is the quickest.
as for the power out put of bike engines i would speak to Holeshot racing about it. their Busa (for use in cars and bikes) make huge power. the top spec units (for cars) are turning out 450bhp in race. and dont forget thats still on 1300cc, not a boared out block like what Radical are doing.
then there ids the 4wd set up. i think it may come into some of the problems the Tiger/Z-cars Z100WR did. when doings its 0-60 race the front wheals would spin like mad and the rear engine would bog down. so i think they where getting MoTec to build them a traction control set up. shouldn't be as big problem in the GTR, with is larger foot print. and will let them put more power to the ground.
noe all we need is someone to build a 4WD set up that still lets you use the SBC. maybe use a Cossy or skyline box and swing the unit around 180? i know there would be a lot of engineering but be nice to end up with something like what the Quafie racer was like.
anyway, keeps us posted. thanks Chris.
as for the power out put of bike engines i would speak to Holeshot racing about it. their Busa (for use in cars and bikes) make huge power. the top spec units (for cars) are turning out 450bhp in race. and dont forget thats still on 1300cc, not a boared out block like what Radical are doing.
then there ids the 4wd set up. i think it may come into some of the problems the Tiger/Z-cars Z100WR did. when doings its 0-60 race the front wheals would spin like mad and the rear engine would bog down. so i think they where getting MoTec to build them a traction control set up. shouldn't be as big problem in the GTR, with is larger foot print. and will let them put more power to the ground.
noe all we need is someone to build a 4WD set up that still lets you use the SBC. maybe use a Cossy or skyline box and swing the unit around 180? i know there would be a lot of engineering but be nice to end up with something like what the Quafie racer was like.
anyway, keeps us posted. thanks Chris.
G Man said:
You have just summed the problem, a bike engine is what say 50kgs two are 100kg, that in a car that weights between 800-1000 kgs is much less of a percentage than say a radical or Caterham so the gain in light weight engine is neglated.
G MAN
your math don't add up..... radical/ caterham 400kgs with 50kg engine.... this GTR 800kgs with 2x50kgs.
seems the same to me.
andygtt said:
You have just summed the problem, a bike engine is what say 50kgs two are 100kg, that in a car that weights between 800-1000 kgs is much less of a percentage than say a radical or Caterham so the gain in light weight engine is neglated.
G MAN
your math don't add up..... radical/ caterham 400kgs with 50kg engine.... this GTR 800kgs with 2x50kgs.
seems the same to me.
Sorry Andy I just did not explain fully
A bike engine weights 50kgs
A 2 litre engine xe 115 KGS
Difference 65 Kg
Weight of Caterham 400kg
2 Bike engines = 100 kgs
One V8 377 = 125 kgs
Difference = 25kgs
Weight of GTR = 800 kg
All I was says that 25 kgs less in a 800kg car would have less effect than 65 kgs out of 400kgs caterham
I know all the weights are approx and we could argue over them, but in essence a light weight bike engine car there is a one to one swap of engines, which works ... but is marginal, a relatively lardy GTR has a 2 to 1 engine swap to overcome the lard, and the case for it working has to be waffer thin ..
Radicals work with bike engines around tracks because of ground effect and wings giving them huge corner speed, a bike engine GTR will have no more cornering speed than a standard GTR minus weight saving which is marginal (2:1 engine swap)
Certainly an interesting engineering project but the maths don't stack ...
G MAN
125kg all up for your 377 Gman? i know you went for an ally block but that does seam a little low! compared to the LS1/6's 220kg.in fact thats about the same weight as a Ford Zetec! i know you would have to add the turbos and stuff, so you could say about 100kg per bike unit IMO.
Chris.
Chris.
Some other factors not discussed here yet are transmission losses and turbo lag.
Don't forget it's power at the wheels that counts and a 4WD system will suffer from greater losses than the simple 2WD transaxle setup.
Also a 1.3L engine running a turbo capable of flowing 400+ horsepower will be laggy, no matter how well it's setup.
This lag may make little difference to a 0-60 or 0-100 time where your flat out throughout the run but will become much more apparent on a track and even more so on the road.
From a drivers standpoint I would much rather have the instant and more predictable grunt of a V8 rather than driving to suite what the turbos are doing.
Can't wait to see what this car can do though as the 'black dyno' will be the real test of this interesting piece of engineering
Don't forget it's power at the wheels that counts and a 4WD system will suffer from greater losses than the simple 2WD transaxle setup.
Also a 1.3L engine running a turbo capable of flowing 400+ horsepower will be laggy, no matter how well it's setup.
This lag may make little difference to a 0-60 or 0-100 time where your flat out throughout the run but will become much more apparent on a track and even more so on the road.
From a drivers standpoint I would much rather have the instant and more predictable grunt of a V8 rather than driving to suite what the turbos are doing.
Can't wait to see what this car can do though as the 'black dyno' will be the real test of this interesting piece of engineering
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff