A big end but a new beginning?
Discussion
Hi all,
Thanks to the 'Saff' East chapter of the Ultima 'Angels' for a truly informative and rather fun afternoon of messing about with cars.....or more precisely, one very sick black GTR....
After the RAF Honington track day and the unfortunate engine failure that prevailed, the engine was removed and the sump dropped................................this is what followed:
Any comments?
Thanks to the 'Saff' East chapter of the Ultima 'Angels' for a truly informative and rather fun afternoon of messing about with cars.....or more precisely, one very sick black GTR....
After the RAF Honington track day and the unfortunate engine failure that prevailed, the engine was removed and the sump dropped................................this is what followed:
Any comments?
Edited by luckyp on Saturday 14th October 21:58
paolow said:
is it a standard wet sumped engine? with standard baffles? if so oil starvation caused by the oil moving toward the extreme ends/sides of the sump under cornering/braking etc would be my guess.
Oil starvation seems to be the popular theory so far here to. The sump is wet, winged and with three hinged doors (one either side and one forward of the pick up).
I also run an accusump which had discharged at some stage as normally holds charge at 40psi when you turn off, but in this instance, it turned off with 0psi.
Oil and filter had been changed 200 miles prior to this, and 300 miles prior to that. The last oil to be dropped out after 200 miles was black (obviously) and quite petrol smelling.
I have kept it incase anyone thinks that getting it analysed might help.
BTW, I'm told that when braking after the straights that there are three foot flames from each pipe and the car has a tendancy to stall when a coming to a stop quickly. The car is doing no better that 10 miles to the gallon and when idling, stinks of fuel soo much you can't keep your eyes open around the engine bay! Could bore wash be contibuting to oil contamination and hense engine damage?
LP
Edited by luckyp on Sunday 15th October 07:35
luckyp said:
paolow said:
is it a standard wet sumped engine? with standard baffles? if so oil starvation caused by the oil moving toward the extreme ends/sides of the sump under cornering/braking etc would be my guess.
Oil starvation seems to be the popular theory so far here to. The sump is wet, winged and with three hinged doors (one either side and one forward of the pick up).
I also run an accusump which had discharged at some stage as normally holds charge at 40psi when you turn off, but in this instance, it turned off with 0psi.
Oil and filter had been changed 200 miles prior to this, and 300 miles prior to that. The last oil to be dropped out after 200 miles was black (obviously) and quite petrol smelling.
I have kept it incase anyone thinks that getting it analysed might help.
BTW, I'm told that when braking after the straights that there are three foot flames from each pipe and the car has a tendancy to stall when a coming to a stop quickly. The car is doing no better that 10 miles to the gallon and when idling, stinks of fuel soo much you can't keep your eyes open around the engine bay! Could bore wash be contibuting to oil contamination and hense engine damage?
LP
Edited by luckyp on Sunday 15th October 07:35
well, with regard to the accusump I dont see how this device, working or not, could have caused the oil starvation, more that its lack of pressure is symptomatic of an oil pressure failure more genrally and its exhausted itself trying to keep it up!
Certainly if the mixture is very rich there is the possibility of bore wash, but this shouldnt manifest itself as a terminal problem with such low mileage covered. I dont recall what the engine top end is - but im assuming carbs. did it pull cleanly? or was it just a bit flat soming off tickover? could be something as simple as idle jets being too big if so.
if the oil is bein affected by petrol contamination, that would certainly not help, but im still pointing the guilty finger at the oil pick up coming clear of oil under high gees above all else.
curious though - what condition are the other shells in? have you checked?
Yes it's Holley carbed.
And yes it does have a flat spot that was at 1500 out of the American Speed Box, but this was changed by the factory and now seems to manifest itself around 2000. What is the significance?
Must point out at this stage, that the car was finished the day before the Cannonball Run, and so there was no time to do the 500 mile first oil/filter change. Although the car has had 1 litre per 500 miles from the start, it's first oil change wasn't until high 4000s miles.
LP
And yes it does have a flat spot that was at 1500 out of the American Speed Box, but this was changed by the factory and now seems to manifest itself around 2000. What is the significance?
Must point out at this stage, that the car was finished the day before the Cannonball Run, and so there was no time to do the 500 mile first oil/filter change. Although the car has had 1 litre per 500 miles from the start, it's first oil change wasn't until high 4000s miles.
LP
Edited by luckyp on Sunday 15th October 09:20
I had bore wash with my AS engine (new piston etc). A lot of this was due to the choke (the car ran a lot better after removing it). Changed to Holley HP and have air/fuel meter and runs spot on with 18mpg on a mixed run (back roads/motorway) I would get an air fuel meter once rebuilt to give some idea.
As said before I have done 50 odd vmax runs with 110mph long sweeping bends and never had a problem with oil pressure- accusump works fine in keeping the pressure up- perhaps it is an accusump problem?
As said before I have done 50 odd vmax runs with 110mph long sweeping bends and never had a problem with oil pressure- accusump works fine in keeping the pressure up- perhaps it is an accusump problem?
Edited by bluesatin on Sunday 15th October 10:25
If you have the petrol contaminated oil tested they should be able to tell if there was already the start of a problem before your track day self destruct. If the problem was already evident then accusump is not at fault as pressure was being held.
There is no doubt though that a dry sump is the way to go if you plan to venture out onto the track.
We all know that petrol in the oil is not good. It will drastically reduce the protective ability of the oil if there is any amount in it.
Go dry sump and EFI when you rebuild. You won't regret it.
PL
There is no doubt though that a dry sump is the way to go if you plan to venture out onto the track.
We all know that petrol in the oil is not good. It will drastically reduce the protective ability of the oil if there is any amount in it.
Go dry sump and EFI when you rebuild. You won't regret it.
PL
I've seen a turbo engine have a piston seizure which I put down to bore wash because it hadn't bedded in the rings. The new oil stank of petrol and came out black, full of particulates. So I'd expect you to have piston damage before any shell damage. I'd put your shell damage down to a momentary loss of oil pressure. I'd also check clearances including the rod journal for being out of round.
Boosted.
Boosted.
boosted ls1 said:
I've seen a turbo engine have a piston seizure which I put down to bore wash because it hadn't bedded in the rings. The new oil stank of petrol and came out black, full of particulates. So I'd expect you to have piston damage before any shell damage. I'd put your shell damage down to a momentary loss of oil pressure. I'd also check clearances including the rod journal for being out of round.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Does this help?
I think many things have contributed to the failure of your engine. The Canonball being one of them. Any engine needs to be run-in correctly if it is going to have a good long life and especially if it's a performance engine. Regular oil changes in the early stages of its life are crucial. An engine setup on an engine dyno needs to be setup again for road use. It should have been setup on a rolling road and the carb properly tuned. The fitting of an Air/Fuel ratio gauge would have been a good indicator as to how it was running. I'm not having a go at you Pete and I'm sure you will agree that going out on the Canonball that soon after getting it running was not the best idea. I hope the rebuild goes well and EFI would be a good option to go for. Cold bore wash would not have helped the bedding in process. I know from my own AS engine that they run way too rich for there own good. Especially at idle!
Regards Dave
Regards Dave
Afternoon P, just like to say that I enjoyed yesterday (even though we had to endure Keithy trying to assert his r e d authority; read, there ain't none!) right up to the part when the sump was removed and I did feel for ya mate. Never mind, no use crying over molten metal, get it fixed and keep on truckin 'aye, may the force be with you 
Edited by GTWayne on Sunday 15th October 12:41
CanAm Dave said:
I think many things have contributed to the failure of your engine. The Canonball being one of them. Any engine needs to be run-in correctly if it is going to have a good long life and especially if it's a performance engine. Regular oil changes in the early stages of its life are crucial. An engine setup on an engine dyno needs to be setup again for road use. It should have been setup on a rolling road and the carb properly tuned. The fitting of an Air/Fuel ratio gauge would have been a good indicator as to how it was running. I'm not having a go at you Pete and I'm sure you will agree that going out on the Canonball that soon after getting it running was not the best idea. I hope the rebuild goes well and EFI would be a good option to go for. Cold bore wash would not have helped the bedding in process. I know from my own AS engine that they run way too rich for there own good. Especially at idle!
Regards Dave
Regards Dave
All good Dave. Except the Canonball Run WAS the idea!!
Can't wait to get the thing back in, but this time with the carb set and the oil changed!
Cheers
Pete
scary all this...if I had the money to spend I would go for a engine replacement new style, say LS2<>7 or Audi or BMW but not the old oilburning route again...see what happened with that guy who also now build one with the LS7 engine, he also had big trouble mant times with those AS? or older tuned engines...scary...
wish you more luck next time anyway...always sad to see your monster/baby is sick/broken.
GTRene
wish you more luck next time anyway...always sad to see your monster/baby is sick/broken.
GTRene
it don,t look good pete ,do you think the shell could have spun ??? whats the rest of them like ??? best guess would be oil problems but there are a number of things that can cause that sort of damage ,check to see if the front timing sprocket has been rubbing on the block ,GTR gaz had this problem . What are you going to do for a rebuild ??
Unless you have changed the wireing the accusump will empty itself into the engine even if its not running and the ignition is on.
Don't forget that it is theoretically possible in an Ultima to get oil starvation even with a big wing sump and working accusump, but I'd not say it was likelly on the track you were on.
My personnel theory is that you had bore wash hitting the rev limiter in top gear thus full throttle with spark being cut. But I am totally guessing.
Do you know what temperature your oil got to?
Don't forget that it is theoretically possible in an Ultima to get oil starvation even with a big wing sump and working accusump, but I'd not say it was likelly on the track you were on.
My personnel theory is that you had bore wash hitting the rev limiter in top gear thus full throttle with spark being cut. But I am totally guessing.
Do you know what temperature your oil got to?
Be intersted to know that the shell next door to that one looks like...
excess fuel in the oil would certainly not help, but that should also show up of the other shells.
if all the others look OK, then I would be looking for reasons that that one is the issue, like is it the far end of the oil feed? etc.
also, are the oil-ways in the crank OK? (mind you that crank is scrap now).
Echo the comments of others on dry sumps, Auccusump is a bodge at best...
excess fuel in the oil would certainly not help, but that should also show up of the other shells.
if all the others look OK, then I would be looking for reasons that that one is the issue, like is it the far end of the oil feed? etc.
also, are the oil-ways in the crank OK? (mind you that crank is scrap now).
Echo the comments of others on dry sumps, Auccusump is a bodge at best...
luckyp said:
boosted ls1 said:
I've seen a turbo engine have a piston seizure which I put down to bore wash because it hadn't bedded in the rings. The new oil stank of petrol and came out black, full of particulates. So I'd expect you to have piston damage before any shell damage. I'd put your shell damage down to a momentary loss of oil pressure. I'd also check clearances including the rod journal for being out of round.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Does this help?
I originally hadn't paid any attention to the first picture you posted. If that's piston scrap in the pan then I'd say you detonated the top end which overloaded the rod bearings, shock loads being transmitted down the rod. So the cause could be compression, fuel or spark or the delivery of them.
If the rod had spun the shell first I don't think you would have had piston damage.
Boosted.
luckyp said:
Yes it's Holley carbed.
And yes it does have a flat spot that was at 1500 out of the American Speed Box, but this was changed by the factory and now seems to manifest itself around 2000. What is the significance?
Must point out at this stage, that the car was finished the day before the Cannonball Run, and so there was no time to do the 500 mile first oil/filter change. Although the car has had 1 litre per 500 miles from the start, it's first oil change wasn't until high 4000s miles.
LP
And yes it does have a flat spot that was at 1500 out of the American Speed Box, but this was changed by the factory and now seems to manifest itself around 2000. What is the significance?
Must point out at this stage, that the car was finished the day before the Cannonball Run, and so there was no time to do the 500 mile first oil/filter change. Although the car has had 1 litre per 500 miles from the start, it's first oil change wasn't until high 4000s miles.
LP
Edited by luckyp on Sunday 15th October 09:20
I've noticed some more things to pick up on. The holley has a flat spot? This could be a lean spot caused by the secondary blades being adjusted incorrectly so it'll feel flat and then pick up all of a sudden. Your flames under braking are probably due to fuel in the rear float bowl being forced up the main jets. I don't know which holley you have but the front main jets could be starved of fuel under braking whilst the rear jets would be flooded. You can get jet extension tubes to correct this.
If you looked closely at the spark plugs or piston crowns you may see evidence showing 4 rich and 4 lean. You could also see which jets supported which cylinders depending on the type of manifold you have.
Boosted.
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