Attacking the CanAm Heat Problem
Discussion
Did a 140 mile shakedown trip to Boston for a meeting the night before our planned 1300 mile round trip to Toronto. Aside from sitting under a bridge for 2 hours while a rain storm diminished, everything checked out well. While we were sitting there under the bridge thoughts of the heat problem kept us busy formulating some sort of solution. When I got home that night a cardboard mockup was made, and at 5 am on the way out, we stopped at the shop and converted the cardboard into aluminum.
The angle piece that tapes to the windscreen is .060", as is the arms. The baffle was made out of .025, so we could do some creative bending enroute.
The tape is 2" black duct tape.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793871.html
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793875.html
We really gave it a test since temps reached almost 90'. The device certainly helped,but not cured, and when the sun would go behind a cloud a dramatic change could be felt. A lot of heat is generated by the glass windscreen.
The theory is to force cool air into the hot air that is being sucked out of the engine air intake.
There is still some tweaking to be done, such as the angle of the duct, but it certainly made a difference.
Will keep updating as the metal gets re-bent.
Plese feel free to try your own designs.
Jack
The angle piece that tapes to the windscreen is .060", as is the arms. The baffle was made out of .025, so we could do some creative bending enroute.
The tape is 2" black duct tape.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793871.html
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793875.html
We really gave it a test since temps reached almost 90'. The device certainly helped,but not cured, and when the sun would go behind a cloud a dramatic change could be felt. A lot of heat is generated by the glass windscreen.
The theory is to force cool air into the hot air that is being sucked out of the engine air intake.
There is still some tweaking to be done, such as the angle of the duct, but it certainly made a difference.
Will keep updating as the metal gets re-bent.
Plese feel free to try your own designs.
Jack
doc_fudge said:
Jack,
How about some type of ducting scoping air fom around the base (side) of the windscreen next to the mirrors and ducting that inside?
Andy
Andy
The factory suggested some form of scoops in the side windows. Since we plan on installing the side windows this week, we'll look into it. There might be some aircraft parts that might work.
Jack
Drove the CanAm home today from the shop, a distance of about 21 miles. Sky was overcast and temp. about 75'F. Had the side windows installed, and the overhead air scoop removed. Car was brutally hot, hotter than I remember it under the same conditions without the side windows. Stopped, and re-installed (taped) the overhead air scoop, and a big difference was noted.
Mark, Andy, and Brad.
Any extra air coming into the cockpit will help, but I feel that the more central the fresh air, the better to fight that blast furnace coming over your shoulder.
The side window is only 5.25" high so I don't think that the Kool scoop will fit Brad.
Mark, the naca scoop would work, but if you're going to be that low, aiming it at the feet might be better if you can move it forward.
There is a bit of a top to bottom curve to the side window, so all inserted devices might not fit. Aircraft Spruce has several air vents that might work if the curvature will allow it.
Andy, would like to know more about the GTR fixture. That's what the factory has suggested.
Jack
Mark, Andy, and Brad.
Any extra air coming into the cockpit will help, but I feel that the more central the fresh air, the better to fight that blast furnace coming over your shoulder.
The side window is only 5.25" high so I don't think that the Kool scoop will fit Brad.
Mark, the naca scoop would work, but if you're going to be that low, aiming it at the feet might be better if you can move it forward.
There is a bit of a top to bottom curve to the side window, so all inserted devices might not fit. Aircraft Spruce has several air vents that might work if the curvature will allow it.
Andy, would like to know more about the GTR fixture. That's what the factory has suggested.
Jack
This is the very nice response I received from Ted a while back, and I have to say that I agree with his solutions. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing them with you;
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Jack
The problem with the heat in the cockpit is that the shape that we came up with in the wind tunnel is just too efficient. All the air blows passed the screen and very little if any enters the cockpit.
The easy solution to this is to bring air from the outside of the car using the brake duct opening in the bonnet into the heater blower area with flexible ducts. We have done this on our latest demonstrator and this works extremely well. When moving a constant stream of cooling air enters into the footwall or via the dashboard vents and when stationary the fan motor has the same effect. Another addition that we made was using helicopter vents in the high side screens. This works very well also.
We always block off the air scoop on top of the rear hood for several reasons.
1/ After testing the air flow under the hood very little if any actually enters the engine bay on a Can-Am via this scoop.
2/ Air to the carb enters via the side vents over the petrol tanks.
3/ When the car is stationery the flow of air enters via the side vents and from under the open engine bay and exits via the 8 vents in the hood and the air scoop if not blanked off.
4/ On the safety side as we use carbs on our engines a blowback will come into the cockpit which could be nasty.
5/ Blocking of the air scoop (we put the grill on and have a 1" thick layer of dense foam behind it) does quieten the engine noise down in the cockpit particularly so if you are using solid lifters.
If you try out the above I am confident that you will be cooler in the cockpit.
Best regards
Ted
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Im sure in the end I'll do one or all of the above suggestions, but before that, as I replied to Ted, I'm going to endeavour to allow the brake openings to cool the brakes, and somehow find a way for the air scoop to feed cool air into the engine.
In the real world, unless the car is only going to live on the track is it necessary to cool the brakes, and to feed cool air to the engine...NO, but, hell ...what else do I have to do?
Jack
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Jack
The problem with the heat in the cockpit is that the shape that we came up with in the wind tunnel is just too efficient. All the air blows passed the screen and very little if any enters the cockpit.
The easy solution to this is to bring air from the outside of the car using the brake duct opening in the bonnet into the heater blower area with flexible ducts. We have done this on our latest demonstrator and this works extremely well. When moving a constant stream of cooling air enters into the footwall or via the dashboard vents and when stationary the fan motor has the same effect. Another addition that we made was using helicopter vents in the high side screens. This works very well also.
We always block off the air scoop on top of the rear hood for several reasons.
1/ After testing the air flow under the hood very little if any actually enters the engine bay on a Can-Am via this scoop.
2/ Air to the carb enters via the side vents over the petrol tanks.
3/ When the car is stationery the flow of air enters via the side vents and from under the open engine bay and exits via the 8 vents in the hood and the air scoop if not blanked off.
4/ On the safety side as we use carbs on our engines a blowback will come into the cockpit which could be nasty.
5/ Blocking of the air scoop (we put the grill on and have a 1" thick layer of dense foam behind it) does quieten the engine noise down in the cockpit particularly so if you are using solid lifters.
If you try out the above I am confident that you will be cooler in the cockpit.
Best regards
Ted
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Im sure in the end I'll do one or all of the above suggestions, but before that, as I replied to Ted, I'm going to endeavour to allow the brake openings to cool the brakes, and somehow find a way for the air scoop to feed cool air into the engine.
In the real world, unless the car is only going to live on the track is it necessary to cool the brakes, and to feed cool air to the engine...NO, but, hell ...what else do I have to do?
Jack
pashby said:
Jack
Hope factory are going to produce kit of parts to save us reinventing the wheel.
Pashby
Was thinking the same thing as I was driving home just now. While I had heard rumours of the problem, I had no idea it was so severe, and I honestly feel the factory should have made us aware of it, especially the legitimate builders!!
Am still going to, for some insane reason, try to have the engine air intake feed the engine cool air.
Might have this solved by winter, when of course I will welcome the heat.
Jack
Mark.
Don't know how far you are long with your build, but was just driving the car, and thinking about the naca duct. You might want to try and put it just below the turn light indicator and you'd be able to direct the air flow at the passengers shins by bringing the air source over the frame at that point. You might not be able to do it on the same side as the fuse and relay panel, but should be able to get one on the other side if you can work around the door hinge and gas strut.
Jack
Don't know how far you are long with your build, but was just driving the car, and thinking about the naca duct. You might want to try and put it just below the turn light indicator and you'd be able to direct the air flow at the passengers shins by bringing the air source over the frame at that point. You might not be able to do it on the same side as the fuse and relay panel, but should be able to get one on the other side if you can work around the door hinge and gas strut.
Jack
Just drove the CanAm home from the shop (21 miles) with the small windscreen on for the first time.
Observations:
1.Doubt if I could race with the windscreen because of distortions at the top, however can get used to it on the road.
2. Air was MUCH cooler at my shoulders. By putting my hand as close to the air intake as I could, there was a little warm air, but not like before.
3. Engine seemed to run much better. Was doing 75 in a 55 mph zone and didn't realize it. This is my air intake setup. The cooler air might be making the difference.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing4/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-675983.html
4. However, there is a LOT of heat coming in over the frame in the footwell area. Wasn't until I could remove the heat overhead that a good idea of the heat in the footwell could be determined. I would at this time recommend that this would be a good place to start making a correction. It's obvious that it's hot air coming from the radiator that's not being collected by the vent.
5. Getting back to the engine compartment heat, as I was backing the car out of my garage this morning, and with the engine being cold when I started it, I could feel heat coming from the air intake. Since the engine had only been running about 20 seconds, it became obvious that the heat was coming from the headers, and this might be an area to investigate to lower engine compartment temps, such as strategically placed air scoops.
6. As for driving with the small windscreen, aside from the distortion, (which was the worst when looking at the front right fender (wing)from a LHD seating position),it was quite good since you're looking over the plexiglass when viewing straight ahead. I had glasses on, and a baseball (sort of a combination of rounders and cricket) cap pulled low. Not sure if I needed the glasses, and there did not appear to be any air that tried to lift my hat off. I'm 5'11", and was slightly crouched in the seat, but very comfortable.
7. While I had the inspection panels off to work on the windscreen, I spent a few seconds investigating the area around the side turn indicators. As I suggested to Mark Koch, I think this would be a good area for a naca duct, or a little airscoop door that could be opened similar to what was on my XK140 and XK150. It might mean re-locating the light, but I think this will work well and shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.
TTFN
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Wednesday 23 July 23:25
Observations:
1.Doubt if I could race with the windscreen because of distortions at the top, however can get used to it on the road.
2. Air was MUCH cooler at my shoulders. By putting my hand as close to the air intake as I could, there was a little warm air, but not like before.
3. Engine seemed to run much better. Was doing 75 in a 55 mph zone and didn't realize it. This is my air intake setup. The cooler air might be making the difference.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing4/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-675983.html
4. However, there is a LOT of heat coming in over the frame in the footwell area. Wasn't until I could remove the heat overhead that a good idea of the heat in the footwell could be determined. I would at this time recommend that this would be a good place to start making a correction. It's obvious that it's hot air coming from the radiator that's not being collected by the vent.
5. Getting back to the engine compartment heat, as I was backing the car out of my garage this morning, and with the engine being cold when I started it, I could feel heat coming from the air intake. Since the engine had only been running about 20 seconds, it became obvious that the heat was coming from the headers, and this might be an area to investigate to lower engine compartment temps, such as strategically placed air scoops.
6. As for driving with the small windscreen, aside from the distortion, (which was the worst when looking at the front right fender (wing)from a LHD seating position),it was quite good since you're looking over the plexiglass when viewing straight ahead. I had glasses on, and a baseball (sort of a combination of rounders and cricket) cap pulled low. Not sure if I needed the glasses, and there did not appear to be any air that tried to lift my hat off. I'm 5'11", and was slightly crouched in the seat, but very comfortable.
7. While I had the inspection panels off to work on the windscreen, I spent a few seconds investigating the area around the side turn indicators. As I suggested to Mark Koch, I think this would be a good area for a naca duct, or a little airscoop door that could be opened similar to what was on my XK140 and XK150. It might mean re-locating the light, but I think this will work well and shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.
TTFN
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Wednesday 23 July 23:25
Made a rubber gasket that fits around the steering wheel shaft where it goes through the aluminum panel, and glued it to the panel in order to seal up the opening.
Seems to have made a big improvement on reducing some of the hot air coming in and over the frame in the cockpit. Thought about the opening when Andy mentioned he got a lot of water coming in through the opening once.
Been discussing the external vent pickup with some of my racing car builders, and so far the general consensus is while the brake duct is convenient to use as a pickup, it's also the dirtiest place to pick up air in regards to dirt and exhaust fumes.
Higher would be better.
Just a few more thoughts on the problem.
Jack
Seems to have made a big improvement on reducing some of the hot air coming in and over the frame in the cockpit. Thought about the opening when Andy mentioned he got a lot of water coming in through the opening once.
Been discussing the external vent pickup with some of my racing car builders, and so far the general consensus is while the brake duct is convenient to use as a pickup, it's also the dirtiest place to pick up air in regards to dirt and exhaust fumes.
Higher would be better.
Just a few more thoughts on the problem.
Jack
Andy
We're still cooking along(no pun intended). The small
windscreen helps, but there's still a little heat from the engine entering the cockpit, along with a fair amount of heat coming into the cockpit up front. Will worry about it when the car's off the road for the Winter, when we'll try a few things.
Jack
We're still cooking along(no pun intended). The small
windscreen helps, but there's still a little heat from the engine entering the cockpit, along with a fair amount of heat coming into the cockpit up front. Will worry about it when the car's off the road for the Winter, when we'll try a few things.
Jack
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