How reliable are Ultimas?
Discussion
I like the idea of an Ultima GTR. I'd use it for occasional trips to work and round and about the place, but mainly track days, especially at the Nurburgring (I would be driving there, not trailering). My friends tell me that they keep seeing them breaking down at track days and that I'll never get to the Ring and back in one - is that correct? What experiences have people had on the reliability front?
Hi Rob , as in any car its only as reliable as the guy who looks after it, a badly maintained car will cause problems and you get what you pay for ,my own experience has been very good over 6000 miles with no issues including a trip to le-mans .i would have know problems getting in our can-am and driving to the " ring" . simon
All depends how you design and specify it.
As a track only car you would expect it to be as stressed and unreliable as any racing car.
Designed/specified as a pure road car it can have reliability albeit not quite to production car standards which have had the benefit of millions of pounds in development.
A combination of the two will therefore have a degree of unreliability.
Having said all that the car is mechanically and electrically very simple so can for the most part be fixed at roadside by any mechanic. If you want to fully appreciate unreliability and costly repairs try a TVR.
Steve
As a track only car you would expect it to be as stressed and unreliable as any racing car.
Designed/specified as a pure road car it can have reliability albeit not quite to production car standards which have had the benefit of millions of pounds in development.
A combination of the two will therefore have a degree of unreliability.
Having said all that the car is mechanically and electrically very simple so can for the most part be fixed at roadside by any mechanic. If you want to fully appreciate unreliability and costly repairs try a TVR.
Steve
My guess is if you want to use it the way you like it and discribe'd it I would only go for the more "modern" engines! don't know much about LS1>>LS7 but geuss they are much more reliable then the older stuf...or choose the audi or lexus engines or the lovely BMW V8 engine's...and best not to choose a high tuned or stresed engine?! also the modern engine's are more fuel efficient and use less oil...
But I'm afraid there are not that many on sale with the more modern engine's in the UK, though for what I hear and read around here more will come and choose for such engine!
go for a modern engine if you do such long trips and the Ring
or buy for a good price one with the old set up or nearly need a rebuilt engine? and replace it for a more modern engine? think lots of guys around here can help you with some good advice
cheers
Ow...I've bin ofered a "new" GTR car RHD in Europa for a fare price and you can choose your engine its stil in the testing fase but a client canseld the car...so its priced to go and you can still choose options like engine's LS or BMW what you like so he told me! but its unregistered so the price is very good, the tax in NL 47,5% is killing it for me
because its unregistered...
GTRene
But I'm afraid there are not that many on sale with the more modern engine's in the UK, though for what I hear and read around here more will come and choose for such engine!
go for a modern engine if you do such long trips and the Ring
or buy for a good price one with the old set up or nearly need a rebuilt engine? and replace it for a more modern engine? think lots of guys around here can help you with some good advice cheers
Ow...I've bin ofered a "new" GTR car RHD in Europa for a fare price and you can choose your engine its stil in the testing fase but a client canseld the car...so its priced to go and you can still choose options like engine's LS or BMW what you like so he told me! but its unregistered so the price is very good, the tax in NL 47,5% is killing it for me
because its unregistered... GTRene
Edited by GTRene on Saturday 26th August 14:14
Very reliable IF put together properly in the first place, or debugged since. After all, there's no complexity, no electronics, solid components (e.g. 911 box, unstressed Chevy, AP Brakes). And if you do get a 2nd hand one, you can get the Ultima Factory to comprehesively check it all out for you, at a price, for safety & reliability confidence.
I was pleased with the resilience of my 8yr old Sport at various tracks - particularly at a sideways driving event where I and the instructor gave it grief for in total a Grand Prix time period, yet no mechanicals, and suprisingly little tyre and pad wear considering. The fuel bill though...
I've never seen one break at a trackday, and I've done enough trackdays to see pretty much every type of car break something e.g. track prepared caterhams & Westfields, yes even 911s.
I was pleased with the resilience of my 8yr old Sport at various tracks - particularly at a sideways driving event where I and the instructor gave it grief for in total a Grand Prix time period, yet no mechanicals, and suprisingly little tyre and pad wear considering. The fuel bill though...
I've never seen one break at a trackday, and I've done enough trackdays to see pretty much every type of car break something e.g. track prepared caterhams & Westfields, yes even 911s.
As coincidence would have it, I have just been speaking to a pal of mine who used to own a CanAm a few years ago and wee too were discussing the reliability/running cost issue. He said his car had never broken down whilst in his ownership and thinks that to be mainly due to the fact that being a hands on type of guy, he was always tinkering and this helped to keep it in tip top condition. If you are the type that has to pay for the work to be done for you I think you may find it a little pricey but then again, depends who you know.
Rob
I have asked the same question as you and after much research and investigation have arrived at the following conclusion:- The Ultima can be built to be reliable. From what I have found, most of the Ultima issues appear to be centred around the use of carbed SBC motors and more importantly the lack of proper setup. Rolling road dyno setup should in my opinion be considered a 'must do' exercise as the Ultima install is effectively a custom application and there can be massive variation in the engine specs from one car to another.
Personally, I am going to buck the trend here in the UK, and will be installing a GM Performance stock LS7 crate motor with fuel injection (stock output is 505bhp). This type of install will be more costly and have certain issues which have to be resolved for SVA, but I honestly believe that it will give me better reliability, better fuel economy (lower emmissions), no crazy oil consumption/loss and therefore an overall more user friendly package. Build it right and as Wayne has said keep it in tip top condition and it should serve you well. If you don't want to do the maintenance yourself it's going to be expensive!
My intended use is much the same as yours, and I considered many other options such as Porsche GT3 etc, but was drawn back to the Ultima on the basis that it's plenty quick, and although not cheap to build, doesn't have the ridiculous running / service costs of the likes of Ferrari & Porsche. Also as pointed out by the other posts, trackday use causes accellarated wear to all cars, even production cars with massive R&D budgets. The big difference is that if you built it, you should be able to fix it/maintain it. The Ultima offers a fantastic combination of being a capable track & road car but don't be under any illusion that it will be cheap to build. Scrimp on the build budget and you will pay later!
I have asked the same question as you and after much research and investigation have arrived at the following conclusion:- The Ultima can be built to be reliable. From what I have found, most of the Ultima issues appear to be centred around the use of carbed SBC motors and more importantly the lack of proper setup. Rolling road dyno setup should in my opinion be considered a 'must do' exercise as the Ultima install is effectively a custom application and there can be massive variation in the engine specs from one car to another.
Personally, I am going to buck the trend here in the UK, and will be installing a GM Performance stock LS7 crate motor with fuel injection (stock output is 505bhp). This type of install will be more costly and have certain issues which have to be resolved for SVA, but I honestly believe that it will give me better reliability, better fuel economy (lower emmissions), no crazy oil consumption/loss and therefore an overall more user friendly package. Build it right and as Wayne has said keep it in tip top condition and it should serve you well. If you don't want to do the maintenance yourself it's going to be expensive!
My intended use is much the same as yours, and I considered many other options such as Porsche GT3 etc, but was drawn back to the Ultima on the basis that it's plenty quick, and although not cheap to build, doesn't have the ridiculous running / service costs of the likes of Ferrari & Porsche. Also as pointed out by the other posts, trackday use causes accellarated wear to all cars, even production cars with massive R&D budgets. The big difference is that if you built it, you should be able to fix it/maintain it. The Ultima offers a fantastic combination of being a capable track & road car but don't be under any illusion that it will be cheap to build. Scrimp on the build budget and you will pay later!
Edited by m3desmo on Sunday 27th August 00:38
It will be interesting to see how the LS7 motor fairs over time with regards to reliability. I don't think there will be a problem myself until people start to tune for more power. The motors are manufactured on a tight budget and are a lot of motor for the money but when you look at things like the titanium con rods for example, yes, of course they ARE titanium, but the very cheapest or cost effective type available. Still better than steel otherwise I doubt GM would have spec'd them but the fact that the designers deemed it necessary to use such 'exotic' material in a factory stock motor (albeit a performance enhanced 'stock') tells us that the motor is at the edge of the reliable performance envelope that GM are prepared to offer an iron clad warranty with. I have not heard any bad press so far and indeed, my engine builder has already seen some fantastic results with mild tuning and if all stays good I definitely feel this is the future for our type of cars, all we need is a comprehensive fitting kit to be made available, anyone up for it?
The warranty from GM doesn't apply when installing the LS7 (or any other GM crate motor for that matter) in an Ultima. It only applies if the motor is install in a GM designed vehicle. In practice, although American Speed offer warranty on their crate motors, it's not worth a lot, as you still have to return ship it to them if it goes 'Pete Tong'!
My biggest incentive for using the LS7 is that it is the latest, lightest and most modern variant of the small block and it's assembled by a single engine tech in a dedicated manufacturing facility. Sure, it probably is at the edge of the reliable performance envelope, but we all know that stock motors are de-tuned in certain areas to pass noise and emmission limits. With careful mapping and setup and an effective exhaust system the LS7 should be able to produce a bit more power but without alteration to the engine internals and therefore hopefully will retain reliability.
I like a challenge, and the working out of all the required ancillaries is an interesting process for me. No doubt, it will have teething problems but this is not unusual for a custom installation.
My biggest incentive for using the LS7 is that it is the latest, lightest and most modern variant of the small block and it's assembled by a single engine tech in a dedicated manufacturing facility. Sure, it probably is at the edge of the reliable performance envelope, but we all know that stock motors are de-tuned in certain areas to pass noise and emmission limits. With careful mapping and setup and an effective exhaust system the LS7 should be able to produce a bit more power but without alteration to the engine internals and therefore hopefully will retain reliability.
I like a challenge, and the working out of all the required ancillaries is an interesting process for me. No doubt, it will have teething problems but this is not unusual for a custom installation.
Right on!, if I were starting my build from scratch I think I too would have gone the LS7 route, it is definitely the way to go and I will be following the progress of any such install with interest (even though I am nearly at the end of my project, motor wise at least!). I don't think the warranty issue will be one to worry about when installed in the Ultima, the point I was making is that the fact that it has a full factory warranty when installed in a standard motor gives one a lot more confidence than say, an AS engine might. Many folk seem to be phased by the fact that they will have to use Cats on a late engined install but I don't know why?. Admittedly, the exhaust design will be complex but wholly do-able IMO and as for the 'power sapping Cats', this will not be the case as illustrated by my Supercharged BMW 540 when I had a stainless system made for it and on the dyno it LOST power with the cats removed and even the sports Cats we tried were not as efficient as the standard ones, so that's what we put back on! Even so, I am sure that once S.V.A.'d and in between M.O.T.'s (but obviously, not for the first three years), it would not be a problem to omit them.
I also cannot understand the 'fear' of the SVA compliance of later engines. The link that Crafty posted a while back suggests that the engines don't specifically require the installation of cats (they are not looking for cats), but rather that the emmissions are tested and have to fall below the required parameters. With a Motec ECU it is possible to have many different engine maps - what about a leaned-out map just for SVA and MOT time?? This may not be possible with the LS7 motor but is an interesting proposition.
Any thoughts???
Any thoughts???
As infinitely adjustable as the Motec is I do not think you will be able to get it to run an S.V.A. compliant motor without cats, I may well be wrong and as a matter of interest will ask my Motec Guru when I next speak with him but even so as I said above, what's the problem with running cats in any case?
Other people have fitted cats to Ultimas before. It certainly doesn't seem to have caused Gardner Douglas too many problems and I would argue that their rear bodywork is even more enclosed and worse vented than an Ultima.
I think that once an LSx install has been sorted it should be a lot more reliable than a "stock" Ultima and quite a desirable car. Can't wait to hear how Greg gets on with his build.
I think that once an LSx install has been sorted it should be a lot more reliable than a "stock" Ultima and quite a desirable car. Can't wait to hear how Greg gets on with his build.
steve_d said:
m3desmo said:
True, no issue with installing cats really!
I thought the problem revolved around the extra heat in the engine bay and in particular if the cats were high under the clip in place of the existing silencers.
Steve
I believe that Jeff Schwartz has fitted his LS equipped Ultima with 'underslung' pipework. Not quite sure if this was to address the heat issues or whether down to space constraints? The point is that the exhaust will in any case need to be bespoke manufactured and there are options, such as downward facing headers and with the cats located closer to the airflow under the car, it should help with heat issues. I also suspect that he has done this to retain as much distance as possible between the intake plenum and the power sapping heat from the exhaust. As I said previously, all these variables are part of the adventure for me, and I do believe that once all the setup is complete it should give me a very reliable motor. My plan is to create an insulated intake plenum fed by the top scoop, and use side scoops (possibly Reverie) to direct air into the engine bay for cooling. I also wonder how much of the obsession with heat is actually necessary - my M3's normal operating temperature is between 90 and 100 degrees celsius and it does not seem to suffer adverse effects. Maybe older tech SBC have issues with heat relating to oil degradation etc, but more modern engines/oils are much more tolerant of heat. After all Ferraris / Porsches etc all have much more enclosed engine bays and yet have mostly dealt with the heat issues. How much of the heat issue is contributable to poor setup of the SBC???
davefiddes said:
Can't wait to hear how Greg gets on with his build.
I intend to catalogue and diarise the entire build and will be keeping you all informed on a regular basis as to my progress. I will also include not just the things that I get right, but also the things that go wrong / or are difficult, therefore giving those who are interested, a 'warts and all' account of the build. Will be ordering the crate motor first and then the kit from Ultima so that I can avoid ordering redundant components from the factory. Still lots of questions to ask and research to do as I prefer to research first, spend after!!!
Probably a philosophy that I picked up from my trade - measure twice, cut once.deadscoob said:
When people sahy the LS7 is at the edge of its reliability envelope, this is a mainstream produ tion type envelope though right? So major rebuilds at 100k, not 10k that may be the case for certain other, non main manufacturer tuned engines?
Exactly! GM will have developed this engine with longevity as an important design criteria and I doubt very much that owners of the 2006 Corvette (which uses this engine) would be very tolerant of having to rebuild their engines every 10K miles - not least in the 'claim culture' of the States.
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