More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t

[Funk]

alock said:

gizlaroc said:

Now, most of the above will make a massive difference on a file that has been copied multiple times...

Did you really just say that?

Maybe I deserve a whoosh parrot and we're being expertly trolled?

[Bullett]

Funk said:

Maybe I deserve a whoosh parrot and we're being expertly trolled?

I hope so.

[spikey123]

Fantastic article, recommended reading :>) oops forgot the link
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

I think it says everything

Oh just bought a Naim cd5i 2, bloody great

Edited by spikey123 on Wednesday 19th March 20:43

[RedLeicester]

Er.

Cough.

Blimey.


Gosh.



Good god.

[Funk]

spikey123 said:

Fantastic article, recommended reading :>) oops forgot the link
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

I think it says everything

Oh just bought a Naim cd5i 2, bloody great

Edited by spikey123 on Wednesday 19th March 20:43

Yep, good article - I posted it earlier higher up the page.

[Mr_Yogi]

Bullett said:

I hope so.

Me too, I thought this thread was converging on common understanding

[gizlaroc]

scorp said:

You can copy a file billions of times and it will be exactly the same unless you have damaged media (in which case anyerror is detected, very trivially). Surely I misunderstood this paragraph ?

Agreed.

That was what I meant.
You can copy a file as many times as you like and it will be identical.

However, we are talking about transports here, and transports can do so much more to that file before it is sent out of the coaxial to a DAC.

[gizlaroc]

alock said:

gizlaroc said:

Now, most of the above will make a massive difference on a file that has been copied multiple times...

Did you really just say that?

Worded badly.

gizlaroc said:

Now, most of the above will make a massive difference, that a digital file has been copied multiple times is completely irrelevant to anything when discussing transports...

[Funk]

gizlaroc said:

scorp said:

You can copy a file billions of times and it will be exactly the same unless you have damaged media (in which case anyerror is detected, very trivially). Surely I misunderstood this paragraph ?

Agreed.

That was what I meant.
You can copy a file as many times as you like and it will be identical.

However, we are talking about transports here, and transports can do so much more to that file before it is sent out of the coaxial to a DAC.

Transports can do NOTHING to a digital file. It's a sequence of ones and zeroes. It's either correct or it's not. The transport can do nothing more than either get it right or get it wrong before sending it to a DAC.

Seriously, are you trolling?

[gizlaroc]

There is a big difference here between copying digital files, and what a transport does with a digital file before sending it to the DAC.
I'm not even saying it is for the better, but it can change the sound, and that alone is enough to tell you that maybe all transports are not the same surely?


Do you all believe that a £20 Goodmans CD tansport, that is bit perfect, sounds the same as Meridian 808?

[gizlaroc]

Funk said:

Transports can do NOTHING to a digital file. It's a sequence of ones and zeroes. It's either correct or it's not. The transport can do nothing more than either get it right or get it wrong before sending it to a DAC.

Seriously, are you trolling?

No, but I think you are.


Has no one played with a Sqeezebox and added all the different filters?
You can swap on the fly to give very different sonic signatures.
This is a transport, you are changing what happens in the digital domain, it sounds different.

If you believe all that you are missing out.


fk me, this is like talking to people about digital back in the 80's!!

I'm going to call it a day, before someone goes and really messes with my head and tells me the earth isn't flat either!

[RedLeicester]

gizlaroc said:

Do you all believe that a £20 Goodmans CD tansport, that is bit perfect, sounds the same as Meridian 808?

gizlaroc said:

Has no one played with a Sqeezebox and added all the different filters?
You can swap on the fly to give very different sonic signatures.
This is a transport, you are changing what happens in the digital domain, it sounds different.

Those are two very different things that sound different for very different reasons.

gizlaroc said:

I'm going to call it a day, before someone goes and really messes with my head and tells me the earth isn't flat either!

Perhaps if you focused your arguments somewhat more rather than using catch-all terms to encompass everything and anything that spits out audio it might become a little clearer to all concerned.

[Mr_Yogi]

Funk said:

gizlaroc said:

scorp said:

You can copy a file billions of times and it will be exactly the same unless you have damaged media (in which case anyerror is detected, very trivially). Surely I misunderstood this paragraph ?

Agreed.

That was what I meant.
You can copy a file as many times as you like and it will be identical.

However, we are talking about transports here, and transports can do so much more to that file before it is sent out of the coaxial to a DAC.

Transports can do NOTHING to a digital file. It's a sequence of ones and zeroes. It's either correct or it's not. The transport can do nothing more than either get it right or get it wrong before sending it to a DAC.

Seriously, are you trolling?

I think we really need to be clear on what we mean by transport.

A CD-ROM ready data will get the data 100% correct every time unless it or the disc is broken.

A hifi CD transport could quite possibly get different results each time from the same file, or get the same errors each time from the same disc. It will attempt to correct these errors if it detects them. Once the data stream is read and any corrections applied it will still be subject to further data discrepancies on it's way to the DAC, due to the SPDif or other interfaces, even though it's still a digital file.

A hifi digital streaming transport/ PC based music streamer will always read the file 100% correctly from the hard disk, across a network, USB stick, etc. However again when the file is passed out to the DAC this is where the data is could be corrupted due to interference or jitter introduced into the SPDif transmission, just like the CD transport.

[gizlaroc]

RedLeicester said:

Perhaps if you focused your arguments somewhat more rather than using catch-all terms to encompass everything and anything that spits out audio it might become a little clearer to all concerned.

But I was replying to the 'all digital transports sound the same'.

[Bullett]

You were specifically talking about CD transports. Everyone was saying that a CD transport has no influence on the sound all it does it get the digital file data off the disc. Better transports are less likely to suffer the need for error correction than cheap ones but if you can get a bit perfect copy of a file it has no impact on the file itself.

You are now talking about streamer transports. And I actually think you are wrong again the transport element is a SB is ethernet/IP an error corrected communication protocol.

The processing you are talking about happens after the file has been transported. SB/SONOs can now see the audio content of the file and manipulate it in any way they wish.

It is then processed again to turn the digital audio file into analogue audio by the DAC.

[Mr_Yogi]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

AFAIK there are no DAC's which are impervious to jitter on the SPDif interface, and all transports have some jitter. There are some intersting articles on the web explaining the problems. And I can definately say all transports do not sound the same. Even adding a linear power supply to the Squeezebox touch, which as acting purely as a transport made an obvious difference.

[gizlaroc]

Bullett said:

You were specifically talking about CD transports. Everyone was saying that a CD transport has no influence on the sound all it does it get the digital file data off the disc. Better transports are less likely to suffer the need for error correction than cheap ones but if you can get a bit perfect copy of a file it has no impact on the file itself.

You are now talking about streamer transports. And I actually think you are wrong again the transport element is a SB is ethernet/IP an error corrected communication protocol.

The processing you are talking about happens after the file has been transported. SB/SONOs can now see the audio content of the file and manipulate it in any way they wish.

It is then processed again to turn the digital audio file into analogue audio by the DAC.

I use Meridian gear, it has beenall digital for the last 15+ years.

The 808 CD transport is digital only, it applies these filters before leaving the coaxial.


The only other thing I follow these days is Paul McGowens posts, the guy at PS Audio, his ideas on digital transports are the same.

Also having DSP speakers, digital inputs only, when I was swapping around transports and noticed massive differences in sound it really made me think about why?
This was back in 2007 I think.
It took me a long time to accept that my Sony Blu Ray player that was outputting digital only was the problem.


They are my reference, and so I don't really see it as black and white as many here do.

[gizlaroc]

Bullett said:

You are now talking about streamer transports. And I actually think you are wrong again the transport element is a SB is ethernet/IP an error corrected communication protocol.

The processing you are talking about happens after the file has been transported. SB/SONOs can now see the audio content of the file and manipulate it in any way they wish.

It is then processed again to turn the digital audio file into analogue audio by the DAC.

This is my point regarding modern transports, the latest CD transoports from manufactures like Ayre, Meridian, PS Audio do all the above with the digital file in the transport itself.

I think people are getting confused between what a transport is and what Rom Drive is, which is just one tiny part of the transport itself.


Simply getting the 1's and 0's out of the back with as little jitter as possible is no longer enough.
That won't give folk a reason to part with £1000's.
There has to be a real sonic difference.

For most though, who still use analogue amps etc. I guess that a DAC makes more difference, if you can do all that in the DAC then a much cheaper transport can be used.

Edited by gizlaroc on Thursday 20th March 10:17

[gizlaroc]

Now then, who uses what digital cables??

[Mr_Yogi]

gizlaroc said:

Now then, who uses what digital cables??

Now that is something I still have trouble with. I find it hard to belive a properly terminated cable in spec can effect the sound when it's connecting two digityal devices.

I have never tried alternative digital interconnects, and I'm not sure my kit is revealing enough even if I did.

That said, there are people on forums who's opinions I trust, who swear there are differences in digital cables, so I'm keeping an open mind until I've heard them for myself.