Masters Of The Air - Apple TV

[croyde]

The episode with the captured airmen being attacked by the crowd

Mind you I would presume the same thing may have happened to German aircrew if walked through East London, Coventry etc

I did a bit of reading and that scene in the programme is based, very closely, on a real situation.

What I found amazing was that the citizen perpetrators were found and tried after the war.

How on earth would they be found?

[FiF]

Couple of things that really got to me in recent episodes.

Right after the Bremen(?) raid, when the only one to return was Rosie Rosehthal and his crew. The acting and direction when it came time for him to get back in the saddle for the next raid. Immense.

Then right at the end of the next episode, he's got his 25, by a fluke of the arbitrary rules he can go home, but chose not to in order to support the noobs who were coming in. Spellbinding.

Credit where it's due.

[and31]

FiF said:

Couple of things that really got to me in recent episodes.

Right after the Bremen(?) raid, when the only one to return was Rosie Rosehthal and his crew. The acting and direction when it came time for him to get back in the saddle for the next raid. Immense.

Then right at the end of the next episode, he's got his 25, by a fluke of the arbitrary rules he can go home, but chose not to in order to support the noobs who were coming in. Spellbinding.

Credit where it's due.

He did 52 missions I think!!!!

[u-boat]

I’m enjoying it but it’s all pretty wooden cliched and superficial tbh.

The anti Britishness is tired and unnecessary. The Americans likely will love it all though.

In Bob you felt upset when someone died, these characters are so one dimensional and interchangeable it’s no loss. Perhaps that’s what the director is trying to convey. If so it works well.

Edited by u-boat on Sunday 3rd March 13:15

[funinhounslow]

croyde said:

The English subaltern that was his roommate at Oxford was lovely though

She’s also in The Morning Show - I avoided this thinking it would be a “kooky” comedy - far from it. I understand it goes downhill after series 1 so haven’t bothered with those.

Never seen BoB so picked it up for a fiver from CEX due to comments on this thread. Four episodes in and I’m enjoying it immensely.

Will reserve judgement on MoA until the end of the series but after a wobbly start I think it’s steadily improving

[liner33]

and31 said:

Jimbo. said:

Adam. said:

Yeah pretty good, the bit at the end with the stricken bomber out manoeuvring and shooting down fighters was a bit Boys Own

I believe such things - or at least, something like that - did happen. “The Last Dambuster” by George Johnson describes how Lancaster pilots would yell “Corkscrew” and so just that to evade fighters.

Yes they would corkscrew, but not like that scene described above-
A heavy bomber just cannot move like that

The Lancaster could roll and even loop , plenty of reports of that happening, not good for the aircraft though

I read the other day that just 24% of Bomber command crews went through the war without being killed, injured or POW.

My old maths teacher and family friend was in Coastal Command in Whitleys , was very low key about it , one page from his journal

---

Mr Cliff Peters, MBE, Bristol
Cliff Peters was a wireless operator/air gunner with 612 squadron flying Whitley bombers from Wick. He was posted to Wick in October 1941.
We didn't really get a chance to explore Wick much when we arrived. We were novices, newcomers to the game so if we wanted to stay alive we had to learn the job pretty quickly. In December we were ordered to fly to Iceland and that was a shock to us. It was 900 miles away but seemed like thousands because the furthest we'd ever flown was from Cranwell to Wick. We flew to Reykjavik but almost as soon as we got there we discovered our aircraft was due for a major service and had to be flown back to Wick.

On 22nd Dee 1941 we set out from Reykjavik to Wick, loaded down with a passenger, two dogs (not allowed to stay in Iceland) and all of the last minute Christmas mail, which was crammed in every nook and cranny. The first attempt was almost total disaster - pitch dark and frozen flying instruments! Thank God Reykjavik was totally lit up. The second attempt was better – we got almost halfway to Wick when an engine burst into flames and had to be switched off. During the next few hours everything, which wasn't welded on, was thrown overboard, save the dogs, in an entirely selfish endeavour to keep aloft. On our return to Reykjavik every one congratulated us on our survival, and not a soul griped about the loss of expensive Christmas presents. The dogs thought it a tremendous lark! So it was Christmas for us in the land of Santa Claus, instead of Hogmanay in Wick. Still, Christmas anywhere is better than the alternative.

It was not until the 22nd Sept 1942 that we returned to Wick to take up convoy duty patrols known as "Floras" over the North Sea. They were the most tiring and trying duties for, of all the many I undertook, we never saw as much as a sausage, save for once when we had a fleeting glimpse of a German Blohm and Vrss HA 138 aircraft which quickly disappeared.

On the 28th March 1943 we had been detailed a practice bombing trip. A raft was anchored in the middle of Wick bay and we used smoke bombs to see how accurately we aimed this target. Although we were only going to fly for half an hour, we took off totally loaded with petrol for a ten and a half hour flight. As we made our second run up to the target, a big ugly black finger of smoke came over my right shoulder. The port engine had caught fire.

We were refused permission to land at Wick as there already was an aircraft about to take off and it was too late to abort it. Harold, the pilot brought our aircraft in from Wick bay, up through the harbour, over the bridge and followed the river for about half a mile upstream hoping to be able to sneak in to the airport from the backend. Unfortunately Whitleys don't fly very well on one engine and so we crashed on the road from Wick to Thurso about a mile outside the town. We snapped our wing off on a telegraph pole and landed in a field just beside the road. As the fuel on board started to go up, the ammunition began to pop off. We dived out and ran for cover before the depth charges went up. We took cover in a ditch and up came an army wagon and a young chap - not more than 17 or 18, jumped out with a car fire extinguisher. He was going to try and put out a 1000 gallons of petrol with this tiny thing and I had to do a very quick rugby tackle on him as he ran towards the aircraft. The whole lot went up in a most expensive bonfire. Apart from bruises and one crewmember having a blister on his hand we all escaped unhurt.

Finally, over and above everything else, I should mention Mr and Mrs Ches McDonald who lived in a flat in Bridge Street. They had a young son lan and daughter Cynthia. Out of the little they had, they treated us like princes and we were ever so thankful. I've never forgotten their kindness to us.


As for MoftA i gave up after 3 episodes it was painfully bad

[and31]

liner33 said:

The Lancaster could roll and even loop , plenty of reports of that happening, not good for the aircraft though

I read the other day that just 24% of Bomber command crews went through the war without being killed, injured or POW.

My old maths teacher and family friend was in Coastal Command in Whitleys , was very low key about it , one page from his journal

---

Mr Cliff Peters, MBE, Bristol
Cliff Peters was a wireless operator/air gunner with 612 squadron flying Whitley bombers from Wick. He was posted to Wick in October 1941.
We didn't really get a chance to explore Wick much when we arrived. We were novices, newcomers to the game so if we wanted to stay alive we had to learn the job pretty quickly. In December we were ordered to fly to Iceland and that was a shock to us. It was 900 miles away but seemed like thousands because the furthest we'd ever flown was from Cranwell to Wick. We flew to Reykjavik but almost as soon as we got there we discovered our aircraft was due for a major service and had to be flown back to Wick.

On 22nd Dee 1941 we set out from Reykjavik to Wick, loaded down with a passenger, two dogs (not allowed to stay in Iceland) and all of the last minute Christmas mail, which was crammed in every nook and cranny. The first attempt was almost total disaster - pitch dark and frozen flying instruments! Thank God Reykjavik was totally lit up. The second attempt was better – we got almost halfway to Wick when an engine burst into flames and had to be switched off. During the next few hours everything, which wasn't welded on, was thrown overboard, save the dogs, in an entirely selfish endeavour to keep aloft. On our return to Reykjavik every one congratulated us on our survival, and not a soul griped about the loss of expensive Christmas presents. The dogs thought it a tremendous lark! So it was Christmas for us in the land of Santa Claus, instead of Hogmanay in Wick. Still, Christmas anywhere is better than the alternative.

It was not until the 22nd Sept 1942 that we returned to Wick to take up convoy duty patrols known as "Floras" over the North Sea. They were the most tiring and trying duties for, of all the many I undertook, we never saw as much as a sausage, save for once when we had a fleeting glimpse of a German Blohm and Vrss HA 138 aircraft which quickly disappeared.

On the 28th March 1943 we had been detailed a practice bombing trip. A raft was anchored in the middle of Wick bay and we used smoke bombs to see how accurately we aimed this target. Although we were only going to fly for half an hour, we took off totally loaded with petrol for a ten and a half hour flight. As we made our second run up to the target, a big ugly black finger of smoke came over my right shoulder. The port engine had caught fire.

We were refused permission to land at Wick as there already was an aircraft about to take off and it was too late to abort it. Harold, the pilot brought our aircraft in from Wick bay, up through the harbour, over the bridge and followed the river for about half a mile upstream hoping to be able to sneak in to the airport from the backend. Unfortunately Whitleys don't fly very well on one engine and so we crashed on the road from Wick to Thurso about a mile outside the town. We snapped our wing off on a telegraph pole and landed in a field just beside the road. As the fuel on board started to go up, the ammunition began to pop off. We dived out and ran for cover before the depth charges went up. We took cover in a ditch and up came an army wagon and a young chap - not more than 17 or 18, jumped out with a car fire extinguisher. He was going to try and put out a 1000 gallons of petrol with this tiny thing and I had to do a very quick rugby tackle on him as he ran towards the aircraft. The whole lot went up in a most expensive bonfire. Apart from bruises and one crewmember having a blister on his hand we all escaped unhurt.

Finally, over and above everything else, I should mention Mr and Mrs Ches McDonald who lived in a flat in Bridge Street. They had a young son lan and daughter Cynthia. Out of the little they had, they treated us like princes and we were ever so thankful. I've never forgotten their kindness to us.


As for MoftA i gave up after 3 episodes it was painfully bad

That’s brilliant! Thanks for posting that

[Adam.]

liner33 said:

and31 said:

Jimbo. said:

Adam. said:

Yeah pretty good, the bit at the end with the stricken bomber out manoeuvring and shooting down fighters was a bit Boys Own

I believe such things - or at least, something like that - did happen. “The Last Dambuster” by George Johnson describes how Lancaster pilots would yell “Corkscrew” and so just that to evade fighters.

Yes they would corkscrew, but not like that scene described above-
A heavy bomber just cannot move like that

The Lancaster could roll and even loop , plenty of reports of that happening, not good for the aircraft though

And shooting down two fighters whilst corkscrewing?

[Siko]

One last gripe - I loved the comment about the raid with 300 bombers and 200 fighters being the biggest of the war to date. I forget the date but I think it was roughly the middle of 1943 around schweinfurt etc. Roughly a year before the RAF had completed at least 3 1000 bomber plus raids. So roughly 4 years after we had been fighting and dying in our hundreds of thousands, the yanks put roughly half what we put up a year before and claim the credit.

It’s just real lazy, cr*ppy writing and one sided American BS. There is so much rightful criticism you can throw at Bomber command - my Austrian granny drove a fire truck in her local town through many of those raids so I have my own opinions. But nobody should doubt the bravery and sacrifice of the British and in particular Bomber command in defeating the Nazis - that they are sidelined and very snidely denigrated by a nation that turned up to fight a few years after we did is just plain pathetic. If I was a yank I’d be mortified that we were claiming all the credit for the brits sacrifice over many years before. But hell yeah, Brit losers and cannon fodder jackbooted nazis. (Rant off ).

[samoht]

I happened to see a chap flying an RC plane last weekend, decent sized thing about 1m wingspan. The way it rolled etc so quickly, with a complete lack of inertia, reminded me exactly of the MotA 'flying' CGI where the whole Flying Fortress would rock and bounce with no sense of mass.

(Mass and especially inertia are less significant vs aerodynamic effects as you scale down a plane, hence why model aircraft behave differently from real ones).

[Hill92]

Siko said:

One last gripe - I loved the comment about the raid with 300 bombers and 200 fighters being the biggest of the war to date. I forget the date but I think it was roughly the middle of 1943 around schweinfurt etc. Roughly a year before the RAF had completed at least 3 1000 bomber plus raids. So roughly 4 years after we had been fighting and dying in our hundreds of thousands, the yanks put roughly half what we put up a year before and claim the credit.

It’s just real lazy, cr*ppy writing and one sided American BS. There is so much rightful criticism you can throw at Bomber command - my Austrian granny drove a fire truck in her local town through many of those raids so I have my own opinions. But nobody should doubt the bravery and sacrifice of the British and in particular Bomber command in defeating the Nazis - that they are sidelined and very snidely denigrated by a nation that turned up to fight a few years after we did is just plain pathetic. If I was a yank I’d be mortified that we were claiming all the credit for the brits sacrifice over many years before. But hell yeah, Brit losers and cannon fodder jackbooted nazis. (Rant off ).

It was a hyperbolic statement by the USAAF 100th bomb group commander psyching up his crews in a briefing before their biggest mission yet. Especially one where they were expected to fight their in for the benefit of the other air task forces following behind. He's hardly going to caveat the briefing by saying the RAF did it a year early.

[Siko]

Hill92 said:

It was a hyperbolic statement by the USAAF 100th bomb group commander psyching up his crews in a briefing before their biggest mission yet. Especially one where they were expected to fight their in for the benefit of the other air task forces following behind. He's hardly going to caveat the briefing by saying the RAF did it a year early.

Sure thing so more lazy and biased writing then? “Biggest American raid of the war”, rather than “Biggest raid of the war”. Don’t let me stop you enjoying Star Wars in B17s, just take it with a big pinch of salt, like anything American and ‘historic’. I think it is all fine - but it badly needs a narrator or some kind of footnote explaining the background or context of what/why, otherwise to a great many people who know nothing about the topic, this dubious and badly skewed version of history will become the truth.

[and31]

There is a thing on YouTube with Micheal Caine standing outside the US embassy in London just after he made the Battle of Britain film asking Americans about the Battle of Britain-
One person actually said “ well I don’t know anything about it but I’m sure the Americans won it” or something similar!!

[FiF]

Thing is though as someone posted above America is a very different nation to UK. Just look at their news or papers. An international event where coverage here would be front page or very prominent might be a snippet on a half column age 17, and maybe not even make broadcast.

I'm reminded of way back my employer was investing and setting up a production facility in US. I was involved on that including vetting prospective raw material suppliers. Employees of the facility came to UK to learn about the process and operations. Was surprised how many, including some quite senior people had to get their first passport, including quite a few whose response to the usual getting to know you chat questions offered up that this was not only their first trip overseas, it was the first time out of their home state.

Very very insular, though might drive what to us is a silly distance to get to a supermarket.

[coppice]

Of course it's US centric , in the same way that much of the English( but possibly not British ) view of the war is Anglocentric. Dunkirk , 'fight them on the beaches ' , Battle of Britain , blitz , dam busters , D-Day , the end . Oh and some desert stuff maybe?

While the US role is grudgingly acknowledged , Russia hardly gets a mention, despite killing 75% of German soldiers lost . Pacific? Balkans?

[eccles]

Adam. said:

Yes there are faults and inaccuracies but I am still enjoying it as I love WW2 stuff and it’s mostly well made.

Couple of questions for latest episode

Did they really have that many P51s escorting? When they flew to engage the 109s the CGI looked like hundreds of them!

Wouldn’t they fly high above the bombers to attack 109s from above (rather than fly with and through the bomber formations?

The “Rosie! Rosie! Rosie!” cheers seemed modern and very out of place

Yes they were normally higher up, not with the bombers. The other slight inaccuracy was they ( The Mustangs) still had drop tanks on when engaging the enemy when it was standard practice to jettison them as soon as they engaged.

[and31]

coppice said:

Of course it's US centric , in the same way that much of the English( but possibly not British ) view of the war is Anglocentric. Dunkirk , 'fight them on the beaches ' , Battle of Britain , blitz , dam busters , D-Day , the end . Oh and some desert stuff maybe?

While the US role is grudgingly acknowledged , Russia hardly gets a mention, despite killing 75% of German soldiers lost . Pacific? Balkans?

“Some desert stuff maybe?”
Rather a lot of desert stuff I’d say
The British had a carrier group in the pacific too..

[Smollet]

eccles said:

Adam. said:

Yes there are faults and inaccuracies but I am still enjoying it as I love WW2 stuff and it’s mostly well made.

Couple of questions for latest episode

Did they really have that many P51s escorting? When they flew to engage the 109s the CGI looked like hundreds of them!

Wouldn’t they fly high above the bombers to attack 109s from above (rather than fly with and through the bomber formations?

The “Rosie! Rosie! Rosie!” cheers seemed modern and very out of place

Yes they were normally higher up, not with the bombers. The other slight inaccuracy was they ( The Mustangs) still had drop tanks on when engaging the enemy when it was standard practice to jettison them as soon as they engaged.

When were P47s used as cover?

[FiF]

and31 said:

coppice said:

Of course it's US centric , in the same way that much of the English( but possibly not British ) view of the war is Anglocentric. Dunkirk , 'fight them on the beaches ' , Battle of Britain , blitz , dam busters , D-Day , the end . Oh and some desert stuff maybe?

While the US role is grudgingly acknowledged , Russia hardly gets a mention, despite killing 75% of German soldiers lost . Pacific? Balkans?

“Some desert stuff maybe?”
Rather a lot of desert stuff I’d say
The British had a carrier group in the pacific too..

Does the Anglocentric view include repeated lazy negative tropes claiming the US effort is inferior plus various other insults?

[coppice]

and31 said:

“Some desert stuff maybe?”
Rather a lot of desert stuff I’d say
The British had a carrier group in the pacific too..

I know that , you know that but most of the public doesn't . They get quivery lipped when they hear Vera Lynn or a Churchill speech and compete to see who has the biggest bloody poppy on their car . .