DUNE

[robemcdonald]

Magikarp said:

C5_Steve said:

Hawat was in Part 2 but his part was cut apparently, there were a few things dropped that the director has spoken about and this was apparently one of the parts he really wanted to include but just didn't have room for.

As for the absence of the Baron, I'm confused. Do you mean a lack of screen time? He seemed to be featured about as much if not more across both Parts 1 and 2 compared to the Lynch version......

Yes, that's what I mean; I should have worded that better. He is a pivotal part of the story and seemed to have almost no screen time. The Baron is a fascinating and revolting creature and yet is simply a incomprehensible growling obese old man, rather than the scheming and wretched Machiavellian man of the books. It would be possible to make him as grotesque as MacMillan did without Herbert's rancid homophobia.

If I was Villeneuve I would have included Hawat and dropped the plot changes (which add nothing anyway - especially the Gladiator scene)

All that said, it is still a magnificent visual event, if not a very good version of the story.

The gladiator fight is definitely in the book.

[Dog Star]

bolidemichael said:

Why are you always on about homophobia, Stan?

I know. I’ve seen it about 500 times and I’m not sure what he’s on about, unless getting your nonce kicks out of pulling out young boys heart plugs is now considered non-inclusive?

Off to see Pt 2 this evening at the Trafford Centre IMAX. I’m also 122 pages into my Lego Ornithopter build.

[bolidemichael]

Dog Star said:

bolidemichael said:

Why are you always on about homophobia, Stan?

I know. I’ve seen it about 500 times and I’m not sure what he’s on about, unless getting your nonce kicks out of pulling out young boys heart plugs is now considered non-inclusive?

Off to see Pt 2 this evening at the Trafford Centre IMAX. I’m also 122 pages into my Lego Ornithopter build.

As the God King progenitor of this thread, I grant my consent for you to share images of your build.

[Magikarp]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

The Harkonnens using Atriedes prisoners in gladiatorial fights with Feyd is in the book. So it is not a plot change

I know it is, but it adds precisely nothing to the film by itself, but Hawat's character's tremendously important. In fact the Gladiator scene is very closely linked to Hawat's scheming while held prisoner but the Harkonnens. There was some curious cherry picking of plot devices.

As for the homophobia, this isn't a bad start.

https://www.thecompanion.app/dune-baron-harkonnen-...

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Magikarp said:

As for the homophobia, this isn't a bad start.

https://www.thecompanion.app/dune-baron-harkonnen-...

Seems like a well-written article that covers things pretty well, including how the 1984 film didn't really do much to resolve the issues. In that respect you could say it was more "true" to the book, but for all the wrong reasons.

I can't read the entire article without creating an account but it gives a surprisingly large amount of text before fading out to a "subscribe to read the rest of the article" button. I know it's free to subscribe but I would rather not.

Dog Star said:

I know. I’ve seen it about 500 times and I’m not sure what he’s on about, unless getting your nonce kicks out of pulling out young boys heart plugs is now considered non-inclusive?

Have a read of that article then, and it might highlight what you failed to see 500 times.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 18th March 16:17

[C5_Steve]

Magikarp said:

I know it is, but it adds precisely nothing to the film by itself, but Hawat's character's tremendously important. In fact the Gladiator scene is very closely linked to Hawat's scheming while held prisoner but the Harkonnens. There was some curious cherry picking of plot devices.

As for the homophobia, this isn't a bad start.

https://www.thecompanion.app/dune-baron-harkonnen-...

On the arena scene being included over Hawat's character, purely from the DV film perspective (keeping in mind I've not read the books) I think it's the right choice. DV chose to focus much less on the mechanics of space travel and spice in his films which naturally took the focus away from the mentats compared with the Lynch film. Even in the older film, Hawat is pretty quickly sidelined as well. The arena scene, as included in Part 2, is solely focused on Feyd and his introduction.

The importance of the arena scene is to set up Feyd and his importance to the Baron in a very short space of time. We're shown he's psychopathic, a skilled warrior and the Barons favourite. It's pretty essential IMO in setting him up as a worthy challenger to Paul later on for the final showdown, plus the fights mirror each other a little providing a satisfying loop to the characters introduction and exit.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

C5_Steve said:

The importance of the arena scene is to set up Feyd and his importance to the Baron in a very short space of time. We're shown he's psychopathic, a skilled warrior and the Barons favourite. It's pretty essential IMO in setting him up as a worthy challenger to Paul later on for the final showdown, plus the fights mirror each other a little providing a satisfying loop to the characters introduction and exit.

I agree. I think one of the reasons that Sting's performance as Feyd is often ridiculed, or at least viewed with bemusement, is that we had no reason to view Feyd as the total badass that he was (unless you had read the books). He just came across as a cocky punk. "I will kill him! I will!" he brags. And then Kyle McLaughlin's Paul dispatches him with relative ease.

Whereas in the Villeneuve film, we (as the viewer) know that he could indeed kill Paul and there is a very real danger of it, because of the gladiatorial scene.

(edited for spelling and grammar. I really must learn to proof-read *before* I click Submit)

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 18th March 16:41

[bolidemichael]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Magikarp said:

As for the homophobia, this isn't a bad start.

https://www.thecompanion.app/dune-baron-harkonnen-...

Seems like a well-written article that covers things pretty well, including how the 1984 film didn't really do much to resolve the issues. In that respect you could say it was more "true" to the book, but for all the wrong reasons.

I can't read the entire article without creating an account but it gives a surprisingly large amount of text before fading out to a "subscribe to read the rest of the article" button. I know it's free to subscribe but I would rather not.

Dog Star said:

I know. I’ve seen it about 500 times and I’m not sure what he’s on about, unless getting your nonce kicks out of pulling out young boys heart plugs is now considered non-inclusive?

Have a read of that article then, and it might highlight what you failed to see 500 times.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 18th March 16:17

I don’t agree with this and it is likely a case that interpretation of the ‘facts’ in this article reflect what one wishes to project anachronistically onto Frank Herbert. There’s a lot of ‘trust me bro’ assumptions and even the case in which Bruce’s mother conveys to her son that she wishes he hadn’t chosen that lifestyle, it was prescient and founded on a mother’s genuine concern… as he died before his time due to aids. Conservative values and a traditional lifestyle i.e. not having multiple partners, doesn’t make one automatically homophobic unless one is really willing them to be, in which case there is no sense having any other view, quite frankly.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

bolidemichael said:

I don’t agree with this and it is likely a case that interpretation of the ‘facts’ in this article reflect what one wishes to project anachronistically onto Frank Herbert. There’s a lot of ‘trust me bro’ assumptions and even the case in which Bruce’s mother conveys to her son that she wishes he hadn’t chosen that lifestyle, it was prescient and founded on a mother’s genuine concern… as he died before his time due to aids. Conservative values and a traditional lifestyle i.e. not having multiple partners, doesn’t make one automatically homophobic unless one is really willing them to be, in which case there is no sense having any other view, quite frankly.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I respectfully disagree with you based on lived life experience and there are some depressingly common and prevalent homophobic tropes in evidence. But I will leave it there.

(It's actually very difficult for me to leave it there but I genuinely do not want to derail the thread)

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 18th March 22:58

[rasto]

Finally got to see it tonight and thoroughly enjoyed it, I would happily have sat through an extra hour of dessert training - the cinematography was top notch. I'd seen some criticism of Christopher Walker's portrayal of the emperor but it seemed fine to me. Thought Austin Butler did a great job too and I could watch Rebecca Ferguson all day long.
Looking forward to re-watching it at some point as a double bill with part 1. I've only read the 1st book so have no idea what Messiah is like, but Denis Villeneuve hasn't made a bad film yet so I'm sure he'll do a great job with part 3.

[mikef]

Watched Part 2 this evening, the cinema was the emptiest I’ve ever known. Amazing CGI, some great cinematography. Seemed to be a bit cut off - there’s definitely a Part 3 in the works then?

[bolidemichael]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

bolidemichael said:

I don’t agree with this and it is likely a case that interpretation of the ‘facts’ in this article reflect what one wishes to project anachronistically onto Frank Herbert. There’s a lot of ‘trust me bro’ assumptions and even the case in which Bruce’s mother conveys to her son that she wishes he hadn’t chosen that lifestyle, it was prescient and founded on a mother’s genuine concern… as he died before his time due to aids. Conservative values and a traditional lifestyle i.e. not having multiple partners, doesn’t make one automatically homophobic unless one is really willing them to be, in which case there is no sense having any other view, quite frankly.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I respectfully disagree with you based on lived life experience and there are some depressingly common and prevalent homophobic tropes in evidence. But I will leave it there.

(It's actually very difficult for me to leave it there but I genuinely do not want to derail the thread)

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 18th March 22:58

[Dog Star]

Just got back from seeing it - bloody epic!

Absolute feast for the eyes (and ears), the worm riding bits stood out for me. I liked how Rev Mother Jessica had to travel in a Cornish pastie.

If Villeneuve doesn’t get his best picture Oscar (not to mention the cinematographer, fx etc) then I’ll be sorely disappointed (the winner will probably be some art film about poets with adhd though).

[Magikarp]

If there is to be a cinematic version of Dune Messiah; there’s going to have to be some pretty creative rewriting as he’s completely changed the Paul / Chani dynamic.

I’m rereading the first trilogy again, and I’m impressed with Villeneuve got right, and what he got wrong.

Visuals - sublime. Score in the first film - marvellous. Pacing - pretty good I thought. Jessica / Chani / Stilgar / Gaius Helen Mohiam / Irulan - excellent. The notion of GE false messiah is excellently done. Worms!

Not so good - audio dynamics, Paul / Baron Harkonnen / Feyd - wooden, or horrendously underused. Huge swathes of plot missing - Alia / Hawat / Spacing Guild / Mentat

Overall a good effort. Really looking forward to bingeing the pair together.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Dog Star said:

I liked how Rev Mother Jessica had to travel in a Cornish pastie.

To a James Bond fan, it looks more like a wicker version of Blofeld's escape pod from Diamonds are Forever

[bolidemichael]

The point about Hawat being absent is a good one. He is vital to the plot of Messiah, iirc, as is Duncan Idaho (in flesh, at least).

[Clockwork Cupcake]

So, still on the subject of Dune but not the films or books, I recently spent several hours playing the original 1992 Dune game by Cryo.

The reason I did was because of this video:

https://youtu.be/JvP3d3QB-4k

It's possible to play it on-line in a web browser but I didn't get it to work. However, I own it on CD so I installed DosBox and then installed the game into DosBox, and it just worked. Amazing.

Initially I just mounted the CD drive in DosBox but the disc access got annoying really quickly so I made an ISO image of the CD and then mounted that as a virtual CD and then things ran so much better.

The game is only loosely based on the books, and very pared down. Poor old Duncan Idaho gets a very rum deal and is reduced to an annoying administrator always going on about when the next spice shipments are due. Gurney Halleck is essentially a training perk for training your troops. Jessica is merely a scanner for finding new rooms in the palace. And Chani.. oh dear. She is just a simpering arm-candy who falls in love with Paul the moment she meets him and then swoons on his arm for the rest of the game. In fact I found all the female characters to be portrayed as paper-thin, weak, and decidedly secondary to the men with no agency of their own. Mind you, the men aren't brilliant either. The voice acting for all the characters is kind of laughable.

So, as a Dune adaptation it is pretty poor. But as a landmark game from 32 years ago there was nostalgia fun to be had for me.

If you haven't played it before, I wouldn't especially recommend it. Not unless the video that I linked really piqued your interest.

[bolidemichael]

That’s a great video. I never played this but spent many happy hours playing Dune 2

[C5_Steve]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So, still on the subject of Dune but not the films or books, I recently spent several hours playing the original 1992 Dune game by Cryo.

The reason I did was because of this video:

https://youtu.be/JvP3d3QB-4k

It's possible to play it on-line in a web browser but I didn't get it to work. However, I own it on CD so I installed DosBox and then installed the game into DosBox, and it just worked. Amazing.

Initially I just mounted the CD drive in DosBox but the disc access got annoying really quickly so I made an ISO image of the CD and then mounted that as a virtual CD and then things ran so much better.

The game is only loosely based on the books, and very pared down. Poor old Duncan Idaho gets a very rum deal and is reduced to an annoying administrator always going on about when the next spice shipments are due. Gurney Halleck is essentially a training perk for training your troops. Jessica is merely a scanner for finding new rooms in the palace. And Chani.. oh dear. She is just a simpering arm-candy who falls in love with Paul the moment she meets him and then swoons on his arm for the rest of the game. In fact I found all the female characters to be portrayed as paper-thin, weak, and decidedly secondary to the men with no agency of their own. Mind you, the men aren't brilliant either. The voice acting for all the characters is kind of laughable.

So, as a Dune adaptation it is pretty poor. But as a landmark game from 32 years ago there was nostalgia fun to be had for me.

If you haven't played it before, I wouldn't especially recommend it. Not unless the video that I linked really piqued your interest.

Never heard of that, have you seen the new Dune game coming out? Seems like a bit of a cash in tbh from the trailer and the type of game which is a shame as I'd have loved something along these lines.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

bolidemichael said:

That’s a great video. I never played this but spent many happy hours playing Dune 2

Dune 2 was a very different game and was basically Westwood's precursor to the Command & Conquer games.

There was also "Emperor: Battle for Dune" which was basically an update of the Command & Conquer format.

I own both. And also pretty much all the actual Command & Conquer games too. But I haven't bought the recent remaster yet.

C5_Steve said:

Never heard of that, have you seen the new Dune game coming out? Seems like a bit of a cash in tbh from the trailer and the type of game which is a shame as I'd have loved something along these lines.

I don't know anything about the upcoming game. I will have to look into that.