Cameron loses EU budget vote

[thinfourth2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20157063



So how are the tory fanboys going to react to this.

Labour and a bunch of tory MPs defeat cameron wanting an increase in the EU budget



Labour are right the EU budget should be cut

[Caulkhead]

I think I count as a tory and I'm glad they won.

However, Cameron didn't want an increase as you put it, he thought the best that could be achieved without a veto was a freeze and labour simply show again that party politics matter more than the country with this opportunism from the pro-EU party that gave half our rebate back and sneaked away to sign the Lisbon treaty in secret.

Although this is largely irrelevant and non-binding, as long as Cameron keeps getting the anti-EU message, I'm happy.

[SystemParanoia]

"Mr Cameron said he would veto any deal on the budget if he could not get a good deal for Britain and accused Labour of opportunism for calling for a cut when it had presided over huge increases while in government."

[Norfolkit]

thinfourth2 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20157063



So how are the tory fanboys going to react to this.

Labour and a bunch of tory MPs defeat cameron wanting an increase in the EU budget



Labour are right the EU budget should be cut

So, the tax and spend Socialists in Britain vote against the tax and spend Socialists in Europe who they agree with while the Tories vote in favour of the tax and spend Socialists in Europe who they detest.

Very confusing.

[anonymous-user]

very glad he lost.

but imo the alternative is if he went for a cut in spending the libdims and lab would have voted against and he'd have still lost. the good news is there are some tory mp's who put country ahead of career, that the government lost, that cameron can go to europe and say sorry i tried but you can't have yet more money. the bad news is we have a drip for a pm who doesn't have the skills to lead a group of european countries in defiance of the politburo.

i'd like to think it was a political masterstroke to get labour to vote for cuts, securing their votes for a second round against the libdims but i think that credits the tory machine with a few too many brain cells

[martin84]

Conservative back benchers and the Labour leadership are something of an unlikely alliance. Obviously Miliband is being opportunist and Cameron was right when he said the public will see through it; we have. The fact Cameron overlooked though is the public and his backbenchers don't care. Yes Labour were the most pro EU Government we've ever had and it's extremely opportunistic for them to call for cuts to the EU budget, but the Tory backbenchers who want to make a point to Cameron won't care whether it's opportunist or not.

[anonymous-user]

martin84 said:

...Labour were the most pro EU Government we've ever had...

notwithstanding the tens of billions blair gave them to try and buy the presidency the torys took us into erm!

if a labour, tory backbench coalition is needed to defeat the libdims and pro eu tory clowns i'm all for it

Edited by fbrs on Wednesday 31st October 21:08

[mybrainhurts]

thinfourth2 said:

Labour and a bunch of tory MPs defeat cameron wanting an increase in the EU budget

Cameron does not want an increase. Do your homework before you open your mouth.

thinfourth2 said:

Labour are right the EU budget should be cut

Yes it should, but that's not achievable. Do a bit more homework and you'll see why.

[martin84]

fbrs said:

the torys took us into erm!

The Tories took us into the Common Market of the European Community. It may seem odd these days but Labour were hugely opposed to that at the time and were the anti-EU party in the 70s. The Blair Government though happily rolled over for Europe and fundamentally approved of what the EU is today in it's present form - and he gave away part of our rebate.

Cameron is the most pro Europe Tory leader since Heath. Major signing the treaty in 1992 made the Tories implode last time and it's been a huge internal problem for the party ever since. In fact it was that treaty which prompted UKIP's formation in the first place.

[martin84]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

EFA

[martin84]

I changed it to something funnier.

[hornet]

fbrs said:

i'd like to think it was a political masterstroke to get labour to vote for cuts, securing their votes for a second round against the libdims but i think that credits the tory machine with a few too many brain cells

That's an interesting point. By accident or design, the Tories can now point to Labour and say "how can they demand cuts to the EU budget whilst opposing cuts at home?". Makes the opposition look rather confused.

[greygoose]

hornet said:

That's an interesting point. By accident or design, the Tories can now point to Labour and say "how can they demand cuts to the EU budget whilst opposing cuts at home?". Makes the opposition look rather confused.

Most of the public would probably like cuts in Europe and not at home though.

[martin84]

Favouring cuts to the EU budget while generally opposing cuts at home is probably the position of most of the public though. Not sure the Tories presenting Labour as holding that position is wise.

[anonymous-user]

martin84 said:

fbrs said:

the torys took us into erm!

The Tories took us into the Common Market of the European Community. It may seem odd these days but Labour were hugely opposed to that at the time and were the anti-EU party in the 70s. The Blair Government though happily rolled over for Europe and fundamentally approved of what the EU is today in it's present form - and he gave away part of our rebate.

Cameron is the most pro Europe Tory leader since Heath. Major signing the treaty in 1992 made the Tories implode last time and it's been a huge internal problem for the party ever since. In fact it was that treaty which prompted UKIP's formation in the first place.

i think you credit the torys with more euroscepticism than deserved. blair tried to buy himself the eu presidency with our money but other than that brown kept us very much out conversely lawson spent tens of billions keeping us in erm to join the fvcking euro! imagine the st show we'd be in now if the tories had succeeded!

[martin84]

fbrs said:

i think you credit the torys with more euroscepticism than deserved. blair tried to buy himself the eu presidency with our money but other than that brown kept us very much out conversely lawson spent tens of billions keeping us in erm to join the fvcking euro! imagine the st show we'd be in now if the tories had succeeded!

Sensible people knew the ERM would be a mistake and it was. Essentially the Euro is the same idea just in a different form and that doesn't work either. You're right that the Tory Party fundamentally isn't eurosceptic, their problem is some parts are and others arent. Europe divides the Conservative Party more than any other, it splits the MP's and causes the most arguments. Infighting over Europe led to the demise of Major's Government and it could do similar for Cameron.

Blair and Brown are both big fans of the EU, not pragmatists. Fans. Brown in particular favours the European project of political integration and union. For instance he signed up to the Climate Change Act which means our votes on the matter for the next couple of decades count for nothing, the act is signed and he has binded his successor. He may not have actively spent money on Europe ala Lawson but I don't remember Brown ever standing up to Europe on anything. Three quarters of Britains laws are made by the EU. Did he oppose any of them?

[Murph7355]

The vote doesn't mean anything, does it?

We still have to take that to the EU. And if they say no?

Hopefully we'll grow a pair and tell them to get stuffed if they don't accept. Can't see it happening though.

[martin84]

In fairness Cameron isn't asking to 'increase' the budget. He's looking for a real-term inflation-linked increase which his wonks have obviously told him is the best he can hope for at the EU table. The fact is though we're cutting budgets for people here at home so why should the EU be a special case? I think that's the argument the Tory MP's are making.

[anonymous-user]

Murph7355 said:

The vote doesn't mean anything, does it?

We still have to take that to the EU. And if they say no?

in the event a budget is not agreed it will automatically increase with inflation!
no point fighting a battle you can't win

Edited by fbrs on Wednesday 31st October 22:05

[AJS-]

Good. Yes Cameron wanted a "real terms" cut, but the rebels want an actual numbers cut, which is much better. Cameron now has no mandate to increase EU spending.