Chavez is dead
Discussion
Which is why, despite economic progress after a 20 year decline, we are not completely won over by his brand of socialism. It fails to address some undersirable social aspects, median per capita income may be more than twice that of ten years ago but are people really much happier when the crime rate hasn't improved in the same period? Median income is only one measure of prosperity and needs to be seen in a wider context (which is an important point overlooked by both Chavez and many ultra-liberal capitalists alike).
Not all of us pro-egalitarian, socialist types are beyond critizising the failures of socialist governments. It's simply interesting to a thinking man from any corner of this argument to appreciate that that in real-world application his socialist policies greatly improved life in some ways (wealth, education) and yet failed to deal with other issue (crime) which might seem quite counterintuitive and unexpected.
Not all of us pro-egalitarian, socialist types are beyond critizising the failures of socialist governments. It's simply interesting to a thinking man from any corner of this argument to appreciate that that in real-world application his socialist policies greatly improved life in some ways (wealth, education) and yet failed to deal with other issue (crime) which might seem quite counterintuitive and unexpected.
Fittster said:
"The facts speak for themselves: the percentage of households in poverty fell from 55% in 1995 to 26.4% in 2009. When Chávez was sworn into office unemployment was 15%, in June 2009 it was 7.8%. Compare that to current unemployment figures in Europe. In that period Chávez won 56% of the vote in 1998, 60% in 2000, survived a coup d'état in 2002, got over 7m votes in 2006 and secured 54.4% of the vote last October. "
Yeah, the left wing never put out false numbers.....http://www.cato.org/blog/did-chavez-win-elections-...
"14 of 24 states in Venezuela have more registered voters than those eligible to vote."
JDRoest said:
Yeah, the left wing never put out false numbers.....
http://www.cato.org/blog/did-chavez-win-elections-...
"14 of 24 states in Venezuela have more registered voters than those eligible to vote."
Ah yes, I am surprised that a right wing, anti-socialist think tank has problems with the Chavez government. http://www.cato.org/blog/did-chavez-win-elections-...
"14 of 24 states in Venezuela have more registered voters than those eligible to vote."
Just like I'm surprised when PETA have a problem with the fur industry.
ETA. The Cato insititue isn't actually that bad an organisation at all - But the philosophical position they are coming from is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
BOR said:
0a said:
I had the misfortune of listening to Ken this morning on radio 4 and his fawning over Chavez, and almost gleefully glossing over his friendships with dictators the world over. Utterly appalling!
Chavez wasn't a dictator. Even his electoral opponents agreed.THIS is a dictator (the one on the left)
MarshPhantom said:
BOR said:
0a said:
I had the misfortune of listening to Ken this morning on radio 4 and his fawning over Chavez, and almost gleefully glossing over his friendships with dictators the world over. Utterly appalling!
Chavez wasn't a dictator. Even his electoral opponents agreed.THIS is a dictator (the one on the left)
JDRoest said:
Yeah, the left wing never put out false numbers.....
http://www.cato.org/blog/did-chavez-win-elections-...
"14 of 24 states in Venezuela have more registered voters than those eligible to vote."
Oooooooh ! A blogger ! And does your little blogger have any suggestions about how to verify that the elections are fair ? Independent observers for example ?http://www.cato.org/blog/did-chavez-win-elections-...
"14 of 24 states in Venezuela have more registered voters than those eligible to vote."
OK I'll put your blooger up against this bloke:
Global Research said:
Former US President Jimmy Carter claimed Venezuela’s electoral system is “the best in the world” (agencies).
Mérida, 21st September 2012 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – Former US President Jimmy Carter has declared that Venezuela’s electoral system is the best in the world.
Speaking at an annual event last week in Atlanta for his Carter Centre foundation, the politician-turned philanthropist stated, “As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored, I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.”
Venezuela has developed a fully automated touch-screen voting system, which now uses thumbprint recognition technology and prints off a receipt to confirm voters’ choices.
yEAH; BUT.....BUT....tHEY aRE cUT oF tHE tHUMBS oF dEAD pEOPLE tO gET mORE vOTE fOR cHAVEZMérida, 21st September 2012 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – Former US President Jimmy Carter has declared that Venezuela’s electoral system is the best in the world.
Speaking at an annual event last week in Atlanta for his Carter Centre foundation, the politician-turned philanthropist stated, “As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored, I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.”
Venezuela has developed a fully automated touch-screen voting system, which now uses thumbprint recognition technology and prints off a receipt to confirm voters’ choices.
bAD:
speedy_thrills said:
I don't understand all this "Chavez was terrible" sentiment.
Venezuelan GDP peaked in the late 70's and the countries economy had been in decline to 2003. The poverty rate had doubled by the mid-90's almost two thirds of Venezuelans where living under the poverty line. This accompanied by the social problems brought by widespread unemployment like crime. Largely Chavez has delivered post-2003 when he managed to get the oil business sorted out and reversed the long-term economic decline, it’s growth hasn’t been stunning but it’s knocked the socks off most developed countries over the same duration of course.
The oil price was around $25 a barrel during that period, it started to rise in 2003, the exact date of this 'reversal' of long term decline you say Chavez delivered. Venezuelan GDP peaked in the late 70's and the countries economy had been in decline to 2003. The poverty rate had doubled by the mid-90's almost two thirds of Venezuelans where living under the poverty line. This accompanied by the social problems brought by widespread unemployment like crime. Largely Chavez has delivered post-2003 when he managed to get the oil business sorted out and reversed the long-term economic decline, it’s growth hasn’t been stunning but it’s knocked the socks off most developed countries over the same duration of course.
speedy_thrills said:
I don't understand all this "Chavez was terrible" sentiment.
Listen to the BBC and there's no 'Chavez was terrible' sentiment at all, particularly according to BBC R2 news which was feting Chavez as a 'socialist firebrand', spoken very positively not as a criticism, and as somebody who 'revived leftism in South America'. If there was a Pope to petition then the BBC would doubtless be asking for the beatification process to begin.
kadoodle-doo!Only time will tell as to whether Chavez was as bad as Pinochet. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Whatever the verdict of history, the country is a mess. Can a centrist party or leader restore some semblance of democracy and accountability without bloodshed?
Whatever the verdict of history, the country is a mess. Can a centrist party or leader restore some semblance of democracy and accountability without bloodshed?
Fishtigua said:
All that oil, gas, iron ore, coal, bauxite, gold, nickel, and diamonds, with an added stream of drugs from nearby, there may be one or two fingers in pies. Greed and corruption may just sneak in to any party in power.
The information I have is from what I've read, not from living there or even visiting, and based on that there may well be quite a few fingers in pies.Chavez has been accused of using billions of dollars worth of gifts, long-term loans and cheap oil to limit American influence in the region. While ostensibly aimed at the poor in keeping with fine socialist principles, Venezuela’s largesse has been benefiting people in e.g. Nicaragua in unintended (or intended) ways.
Reports say that on the outskirts of Managua there's a sign "Welcome to District Hugo Chavez" and people in Nicaragua say they've been helped, but 'obscene riches are being amassed' according to investigative journalist Chamorro who alleges that a powerful elite has 'corruptly siphoned off millions of dollars of Venezuelan aid'. Chavez’s opponents point to a similar phenomenon in Venezuela, but then they would.
Whatever the degree of truth in this, the amount of money that was sent abroad (est $80bn) when schools, hospitals and infrastructure in Venezuela are coping with underinvestment is a triumph of pure international anti-Americanism over domestic socialist ideals. Then again triumph isn't the best word.
Leithen said:
Only time will tell as to whether Chavez was as bad as Pinochet. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Whatever the verdict of history, the country is a mess. Can a centrist party or leader restore some semblance of democracy and accountability without bloodshed?
No his VP will get in and continue the status quo. But he will never be Chavez. Whatever the verdict of history, the country is a mess. Can a centrist party or leader restore some semblance of democracy and accountability without bloodshed?
The Left have a much bigger voting base than the right and if they keep promising free things they can't lose
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