Guns Everywhere

[redtwin]

VeeDubBigBird said:

Read the following, all examples of shootings where it was clear the shooter should not have had a gun license.

I have read them and I am in complete agreement with you.

I am at a loss as to what those incidents have to do with the difficulty (relative to a car) in purchasing a gun though.

[Rovinghawk]

Bill said:

on balance removing access to one aspect of a hobby is a small price to pay.

Those who want it aren't the ones paying the price.

It's like national service- those in favour of it aren't the ones whose freedoms will be limited.

[Bill]

redtwin said:

I did mean legally.

If you are buying a gun from a licensed gun dealer, the process is considerably more involved and regulated than it is to buy a car from a licensed car dealer. That is before you even touch on the restrictions due to criminal record, age and location (state and city laws etc).

Private *legal* sales of guns and cars are equally easy.

Check the classifieds, find one you like "full service history, one careful owner, first to see will buy" etc, ring up seller, arrange to meet for an inspection and test drive/fire, hand over dosh and be on your way.

Christ on a bike! It's like drawing teeth.

They are equally easy, and yet you need a licence to use one in public.

[Saddle bum]

Bill said:

Christ on a bike! It's like drawing teeth.

They are equally easy, and yet you need a licence to use one in public.

You need a licence to POSSESS one.

[Bill]

You seem to be right, the Wiki table suggests one thing the text another. Permit issue would seem to be a box ticking exercise with a judge though.

[redtwin]

Are you referring to gun ownership or the ability to carry a gun in public legally?. Also, what type of gun?. The rules surrounding ownership and possession of handguns and long guns (rifles and shotguns) are different and they vary by State.

I thought it best to ask exactly what you meant as I think wires were crossed earlier and I was answering a different question than you were asking.

[unrepentant]

redtwin said:

Bill said:

redtwin said:

I wasn't trying to reassure you, just disprove your thought that it is easier to buy a gun than it is to buy a car.

Hmmm. I did say legally as well.

I did mean legally.

If you are buying a gun from a licensed gun dealer, the process is considerably more involved and regulated than it is to buy a car from a licensed car dealer. That is before you even touch on the restrictions due to criminal record, age and location (state and city laws etc).

Even as a non US citizen it is remarkably easy for me to buy a gun. If I walk in to Walmart or Gander Mountain or Joe's gun shop there will be a cursory background check. However, unless I am certified insane or have a felony conviction I will get my gun and if I wish a permit to carry it concealed on my person. If I choose not to buy my gun with my cornflakes and instead go to a gun show, of which there are thousands held each year, I can buy a gun or guns or an arsenal with no checks being made whatsoever and walk away with them without delay.

Actually to title a car in the state I live in you have to prove your residence of the state and your identity to the BMV which can be a lot more involved than applying for a gun permit.

[redtwin]

Have you bought any guns and if so where from?.

[Dr Jekyll]

So if I visited one of the more libertarian states of the US and decided to buy a car for my trip instead of renting, and buy a handgun in case of Grizzly bears. Which would be easiest?

[redtwin]

Unless you were a legal resident of the US you couldn't buy a gun at all...well not legally.

[Bill]

redtwin said:

Are you referring to gun ownership or the ability to carry a gun in public legally?. Also, what type of gun?. The rules surrounding ownership and possession of handguns and long guns (rifles and shotguns) are different and they vary by State.

I thought it best to ask exactly what you meant as I think wires were crossed earlier and I was answering a different question than you were asking.

I did wonder. First off it was a glib generalisation but for the purposes of this thread I'm looking at Georgia where it would seem the licensing for a car is more stringent than the handgun in the glovebox.

[unrepentant]

Dr Jekyll said:

So if I visited one of the more libertarian states of the US and decided to buy a car for my trip instead of renting, and buy a handgun in case of Grizzly bears. Which would be easiest?

Go to a gun show in Texas or many other states and buy from a "private seller" and you'll have no problem. The only id they'll require is a few pictures of Benjamin Franklin.

[redtwin]

Bill said:

I did wonder. First off it was a glib generalisation but for the purposes of this thread I'm looking at Georgia where it would seem the licensing for a car is more stringent than the handgun in the glovebox.

Right, I am with you now, you were initially asking about buying a gun which then transitioned to possessing that gun in public.

I don't have personal experience of Georgia, but I know that in Florida, where I lived and owned guns, you don't need any kind of permit or licensing to carry your handgun in the glovebox provided it is not readily accessible from the driver's seat.

If you have a Concealed Carry permit, then you don't have to meet that "readily accessible" criteria as the permit will allow you to have it anywhere on your person.

[Pesty]

Redtwin correct me if I'm wrong I believe some states require you to attend a ccw course in order to carry concealed others like Arizona do not.
As long as you are a resident there you can carry a gun on you but not in national parks unless you take a ccw course.

Some places you cannot carry concealed at all. Laws vary from state to state obviously in some pinko states you cannot carry concealed at all fbho etc etc

[redtwin]

Yes, the laws do vary between states. Most states require you to take a CCW course before you are issued with a concealed carry permit. I know Georgia does not and as a result many other states will not recognize a Georgia CCW if a holder is travelling through their state.

Of course there is also the Open Carry option in some states where no course or permit is required to have a gun on you. That is a can of worms though.

I am not aware of any states that absolutely prohibit concealed carry. They may have very restrictive procedures to obtain the permit though.

I never bothered with a CCW when I lived there, didn't see the need to carry a gun on me. To be honest it looked like a bit of a ball ache carrying. Always having to ensure it could not be seen by the public, which would be an offence if it was, constantly being mindful of where you couldn't go such as Federal buildings (Post Office etc). I knew a few people who did and they would have to remove the gun and lock it in their car if we were out somewhere and there was a restriction.

Edited by redtwin on Friday 25th April 19:29

[Pesty]

I thought you couldn't carry in New York? Or did I dream that vaguely remember something along those lines also you have only been able to ccw in another city can't remember which for a year. Posted about it yesterday but already forgotten

So are state laws different to some city laws ?

[redtwin]

New York city is very restrictive, but other parts of the state certainly allows concealed carry with a permit.

The scary thing is that you have Federal, State, County and City laws to wade through. What may be perfectly legal in one city or county could mean years in prison in a neighbouring one.

Those innocuous looking "City Limits" signs you see posted are not to be taken lightly if you happen to be doing something that is legal in the county, but not legal in a city within that same county.

Something as simple as making a right turn on a red traffic light. When I lived in NY, right turns on red were the norm...unless I happened to cross into NY City limits where they were illegal.

[Gandahar]

TEKNOPUG said:

The right to bare arms doesn't specify what kind of "arms". They've drawn the line at fully automatic guns, mortars and field-artillery. So why not just limit the arms to something that stays in the constitution but makes it considerably harder to commit mass murder. Such as, everyone is allowed to bring a pike to Church? Or broad-swords are acceptable to carry on public transport. Trebuchets must be visible at all time?

Exactly, rather than arguing about semi or fully automatic why not go back to first principles for when it was written and say everyone has to load their musket, and I repeat musket, by the barrel.

And wear a tricorn hat.

Or is the US of A going to get into the 20th C, never mind the 21st C, rather than the 18th

[Pesty]

redtwin said:

New York city is very restrictive, but other parts of the state certainly allows concealed carry with a permit.

The scary thing is that you have Federal, State, County and City laws to wade through. What may be perfectly legal in one city or county could mean years in prison in a neighbouring one.

Those innocuous looking "City Limits" signs you see posted are not to be taken lightly if you happen to be doing something that is legal in the county, but not legal in a city within that same county.

Something as simple as making a right turn on a red traffic light. When I lived in NY, right turns on red were the norm...unless I happened to cross into NY City limits where they were illegal.

Thanks.
That's why if I could I'd move to Arizona

[Gandahar]

h8tax said:

P-Jay said:

grumbledoak said:

Good for them.

Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.

No, our current level of gun control was set after someone walked into a primary school and murdered 16 small children and a teacher. The Majority of Britain had, had enough of guns, and we still have, well apart from the acutely insecure.

And fear is a correct response to the thought of someone having a device that allows them to kill another person from a distance with total ease. I wouldn't want to live in a county where people routinely went about their day with broadsword around their belt, let alone a handgun.

There is no 'good news' with guns, as 'positive' story the gun nuts like to share usually revolves around a 'good guy' killing a 'bad guy' to stop him doing something, usually with his own gun.

Utter nonsense. The post Dunblane ban on handguns was a typical over-legislative knee jerk reaction from the most oppressive government we have had in recent times. It did nothing to stop subsequent gun killings - these will always happen without an outright ban on ALL firearms.

The problem with Ryan (Hungerford) and Hamilton (Dunblane) was not the type of guns they used, but simply the fact that their local constabularies failed in their proper duty to ensure they were fit persons to hold a licence.

Firearms with far more killing power than handguns are still widely held by firearms and shotgun licence holders in the UK. Gun control in the UK is an entirely political process and has no effect on reducing deaths from legally held firearms. If the laws were relaxed tomorrow to pre-Dunblane or even pre-Hungerford status then equally it would have no effect on increasing gun crime in any way, as long as licence applications were processed as they are now, with appropriate levels of background checks.

Actually that is not true.

Number of firearm offences with replica weapons went up after the tightening of restrictions by criminals because

a. They got replica firearms far more easy than real guns

b. They wouldn't get such a hammering if they got caught with an imitation weapon as a real one.

Crooks ain't stupid. You can check the Home Office stats to check the veracity of my 2 points above.

Besides, total gun homicide deaths in the UK, per 100 000, is less than the number of children killed in the USA each year by fire arms.

Gloss that one over.