Moderate Muslims
Discussion
AJS- said:
2 reasons for that Trigger.
Firstly, like any ideology, it's not really what the academics and the highly learned people think of the finer details that really matter. It's the guy with the gun/bomb/army/police force.
Secondly, and related, I would like to think that if I was part of an ideology or religion which I would feel I was betraying by condemning the practice of stoning people to death for adultery, then I would leave it.
Yes and its apparent the guy with the gun/bomb/army/police doesn't actually care and will use one verse to justify anything.Firstly, like any ideology, it's not really what the academics and the highly learned people think of the finer details that really matter. It's the guy with the gun/bomb/army/police force.
Secondly, and related, I would like to think that if I was part of an ideology or religion which I would feel I was betraying by condemning the practice of stoning people to death for adultery, then I would leave it.
And your second comment, seems like a last minute desperate attempt to take a dig at either me for following islam or islam itself.... Your not a muslim so I guess you wont have to leave it.. To some people in the world marriage is a holy bond. you can divorce and marry whoever you like but to break that bond whilst lieing deceiving your partner is a great sin. Wether I agree or not is a different issue. but this is not unique to Islam.
Christianity
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Judaism
http://people.opposingviews.com/adultery-jewish-re...
Most muslims around the world do not actually carry out hadud punishment as we have been through before.
Seriously go find an Imam
AJS- said:
Disastrous
I've already said I will go and meet an imam as soon as practical. I will post the results. Whatever they may be.
Though I think the fact that nobody seems to be able to offer more than a fairly superficial defence of the more extreme passages is a bit of a worry in itself.
I doubt you will but never mind.I've already said I will go and meet an imam as soon as practical. I will post the results. Whatever they may be.
Though I think the fact that nobody seems to be able to offer more than a fairly superficial defence of the more extreme passages is a bit of a worry in itself.
AJS - you live in Thailand yes? Presumably you make money for Thailand, either directly through your work or indirectly through the tax you pay and/or the infrastructure you support? Thailand has been in the midst of a human rights crisis since May 2014. How do you justify your tacit support for a military junta that is abusing human rights?
AJS , from here looking in it feels like you cherry picks the bits that justify your beliefs whilst ignoring the others.
Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: AJS , from here looking in it feels like you cherry picks the bits that justify your beliefs whilst ignoring the others.
Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
Agreed. Or at least shush on here as it's just silly.Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
I answered the thread mate...
I gave you an explanation of the passage you stated, you said I was looking to much into the word willingly. Well unfortunately thats how me and the majority of the world interprete that passage. If you think otherwise thats your interpretation.
I am starting to think instead of an imam you need to talk to someone from ISIS... it well help you realise how stupid they are.
Check the video out below. This guy actually says one sin is enough to make you an infedel... one sin!! a lie, a wrong thought, a fart in the wrong direction... He wants to behead the host. This guy is perfect and has never sinned? no one could ever say that. You tell me where in the quran it mentions anything anywhere near that one sin is enough to make you an infidel. rediculous. They go on to talk about shirk and how visiting the prophets grave is akin to saying there is more than one god. and how they want to destroy mohammeds grave.. There has been not one group since the beginning of islam who has ever dared to say anything like that. This has nothing to do with islam, hes just a retard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5p82snwhs
it looks like you were correct about this not being a recent thing. This was also around in Mohammeds time. http://muslimmatters.org/2015/08/24/khawarij-ideol...
No one recognized them as muslims as they were people who just used it for their own evilness. the religion didnt pass further than their throats. which basically means they recited bits of quran and didn't implement the religion (in their hearts).
I gave you an explanation of the passage you stated, you said I was looking to much into the word willingly. Well unfortunately thats how me and the majority of the world interprete that passage. If you think otherwise thats your interpretation.
I am starting to think instead of an imam you need to talk to someone from ISIS... it well help you realise how stupid they are.
Check the video out below. This guy actually says one sin is enough to make you an infedel... one sin!! a lie, a wrong thought, a fart in the wrong direction... He wants to behead the host. This guy is perfect and has never sinned? no one could ever say that. You tell me where in the quran it mentions anything anywhere near that one sin is enough to make you an infidel. rediculous. They go on to talk about shirk and how visiting the prophets grave is akin to saying there is more than one god. and how they want to destroy mohammeds grave.. There has been not one group since the beginning of islam who has ever dared to say anything like that. This has nothing to do with islam, hes just a retard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5p82snwhs
it looks like you were correct about this not being a recent thing. This was also around in Mohammeds time. http://muslimmatters.org/2015/08/24/khawarij-ideol...
No one recognized them as muslims as they were people who just used it for their own evilness. the religion didnt pass further than their throats. which basically means they recited bits of quran and didn't implement the religion (in their hearts).
Edited by triggerh4ppy on Tuesday 22 December 16:27
This thread (and all the 300 others) have so many parallels with the cyclists vs car driver ones, and I'm not just talking about the fact that there are too many of them and that they are mostly full of ignorance.
Some car drivers hate all cyclists as the odd one is a bellend. Some cyclists hate all car drivers because the odd one is a bellend. The vast majority of sane, normal, intelligent people understand that a percentage of people are bellends and that some ride bikes and some drive cars, neither chosen mode of transport contributes to or takes away from there bellendalism.
The Muslim vs non-Muslim thing is largely the same and, like car drivers/cyclists, trying to convince someone that it is not the fact that someone is a cyclist/driver that makes them a bellend is near on impossible. Especially when the other party doesn't want to hear that answer.
Some car drivers hate all cyclists as the odd one is a bellend. Some cyclists hate all car drivers because the odd one is a bellend. The vast majority of sane, normal, intelligent people understand that a percentage of people are bellends and that some ride bikes and some drive cars, neither chosen mode of transport contributes to or takes away from there bellendalism.
The Muslim vs non-Muslim thing is largely the same and, like car drivers/cyclists, trying to convince someone that it is not the fact that someone is a cyclist/driver that makes them a bellend is near on impossible. Especially when the other party doesn't want to hear that answer.
triggerh4ppy said:
I answered the thread mate...
I am starting to think instead of an imam you need to talk to someone from ISIS... it well help you realise how stupid they are.
I admire your patience mate. I heard this story about an ISIS operative who was caught by Iraqi soldiers not long ago. It was around midday and in desperation he asked the soldiers to kill him there and then because he wants to have lunch with the prophet Muhammed.The soldiers refused to grant him his wish but stated they will kill him around 3pm so he can do the washing up instead! Yes that's how stupid and brain washed ISIS recruits are!I am starting to think instead of an imam you need to talk to someone from ISIS... it well help you realise how stupid they are.
Disastrous said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: AJS , from here looking in it feels like you cherry picks the bits that justify your beliefs whilst ignoring the others.
Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
Agreed. Or at least shush on here as it's just silly.Kind of ironic since that's what extremists tend to do.
Go see an Imam.
You either won't, or you will but you'll find a reason not to believe them.
I'm pretty certain it will be one of those two things, but honest to god stand back and take a look at how you're coming across - it's a little unhealthy to say the least.
I'm not having a dig at you Trigger. Just an open debate about what Islam actually is.
We all have our own morality, and mine says that stoning for adultery is always and everywhere wrong. Yours apparently doesn't. I would need something a bit more than referring up to an imam to keep me part of a faith which condones or even demands this sort of punishment.
If your view is representative (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then I think it's something that is worth being aware of as regards political Islam.
Deuteronomy and Leviticus are part of the laws of Moses, so as I understand it form the basis of Islam too. By the 7th century, the problem was that the Jews and Christians had polluted these laws. At least partly by not taking them seriously enough.
But I'm neither Jewish nor Christian, so that's not my fight. And because Jews and Christians no longer stone people to death for adultery it's not really what's under discussion here anyway, except perhaps that you might look at the way Judaism and Christianity have evolved to be able to fairly peacefully coexist with other faiths in a way that Islam in significant ways has not.
TTwiggy
Same way I justify buying Saudi Arabian petrol or any number of things which are made in China. That's life. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything those regimes do or that I forfeit any right to criticise them or hope they change.
Stewie
I have pointed out bits of Islam I find admirable, and I have pointed out Muslims who I believe are sincerely reformist. I don't see that as cherry picking.
I suspect I will find as I have before that I simply can not agree with their basic ideology that they want an Islamic form of government, and believe that stoning is acceptable.
Trigger
I appreciate your contributions. It doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't see how 'willing submission' after being 'fought wherever found' is really conducive to inter-faith harmony, and I don't accept that it related only very specifically to one time and place because I can't find any source that agrees with that and have pointed out ones that don't.
I don't know what the crazy guy proves. I've never said all Muslims are crazy, or all Muslims are anything. I think this is a struggle which needs to happen in Islam to make it more compatible with the modern world that I'm sure most Muslims and most Arabs want to be a part of. It's a struggle that I feel we in the west have a very scant understanding of, and because of that we are prone to huge policy blunders which more often help the regressive, reactionary and wrong side of that struggle.
We all have our own morality, and mine says that stoning for adultery is always and everywhere wrong. Yours apparently doesn't. I would need something a bit more than referring up to an imam to keep me part of a faith which condones or even demands this sort of punishment.
If your view is representative (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then I think it's something that is worth being aware of as regards political Islam.
Deuteronomy and Leviticus are part of the laws of Moses, so as I understand it form the basis of Islam too. By the 7th century, the problem was that the Jews and Christians had polluted these laws. At least partly by not taking them seriously enough.
But I'm neither Jewish nor Christian, so that's not my fight. And because Jews and Christians no longer stone people to death for adultery it's not really what's under discussion here anyway, except perhaps that you might look at the way Judaism and Christianity have evolved to be able to fairly peacefully coexist with other faiths in a way that Islam in significant ways has not.
TTwiggy
Same way I justify buying Saudi Arabian petrol or any number of things which are made in China. That's life. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything those regimes do or that I forfeit any right to criticise them or hope they change.
Stewie
I have pointed out bits of Islam I find admirable, and I have pointed out Muslims who I believe are sincerely reformist. I don't see that as cherry picking.
I suspect I will find as I have before that I simply can not agree with their basic ideology that they want an Islamic form of government, and believe that stoning is acceptable.
Trigger
I appreciate your contributions. It doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't see how 'willing submission' after being 'fought wherever found' is really conducive to inter-faith harmony, and I don't accept that it related only very specifically to one time and place because I can't find any source that agrees with that and have pointed out ones that don't.
I don't know what the crazy guy proves. I've never said all Muslims are crazy, or all Muslims are anything. I think this is a struggle which needs to happen in Islam to make it more compatible with the modern world that I'm sure most Muslims and most Arabs want to be a part of. It's a struggle that I feel we in the west have a very scant understanding of, and because of that we are prone to huge policy blunders which more often help the regressive, reactionary and wrong side of that struggle.
PRTVR said:
what is silly is people trying to shut down any discussion regarding Islam, reading AJS's posts I see nothing wrong with them, what I find silly is people trying to shut it down, it really paints you and what you are trying to protect in a bad light, you may feel that you are doing a good job, but in fact you are doing the opposite, I do love the advice to go see an Imam, is he going to be impartial and ready to discuss any failing in his religion?
Of course an Imam won't be impartial, but he will be able to give a more learned view than AJS can get from reading stuff on the internet. Nobody is trying to shut down AJS. Zod said:
PRTVR said:
what is silly is people trying to shut down any discussion regarding Islam, reading AJS's posts I see nothing wrong with them, what I find silly is people trying to shut it down, it really paints you and what you are trying to protect in a bad light, you may feel that you are doing a good job, but in fact you are doing the opposite, I do love the advice to go see an Imam, is he going to be impartial and ready to discuss any failing in his religion?
Of course an Imam won't be impartial, but he will be able to give a more learned view than AJS can get from reading stuff on the internet. Nobody is trying to shut down AJS. He thinks X, Y and Z. He pretends he wants to find out 'The Truth' but actually just wants to re-affirm his position. So now we all know he thinks X, Y and Z can he not just leave it instead of starting extra threads about it?
Even chip in as and when it becomes relevant on other threads but what's the point in stuff like this?
ManFromDelmonte said:
This thread (and all the 300 others) have so many parallels with the cyclists vs car driver ones, and I'm not just talking about the fact that there are too many of them and that they are mostly full of ignorance.
Some car drivers hate all cyclists as the odd one is a bellend. Some cyclists hate all car drivers because the odd one is a bellend. The vast majority of sane, normal, intelligent people understand that a percentage of people are bellends and that some ride bikes and some drive cars, neither chosen mode of transport contributes to or takes away from there bellendalism.
The Muslim vs non-Muslim thing is largely the same and, like car drivers/cyclists, trying to convince someone that it is not the fact that someone is a cyclist/driver that makes them a bellend is near on impossible. Especially when the other party doesn't want to hear that answer.
Except that 99.99% of cyclists are also motorists. I would imagine being a muslim and a non-muslim are mutually exclusive statements. Some car drivers hate all cyclists as the odd one is a bellend. Some cyclists hate all car drivers because the odd one is a bellend. The vast majority of sane, normal, intelligent people understand that a percentage of people are bellends and that some ride bikes and some drive cars, neither chosen mode of transport contributes to or takes away from there bellendalism.
The Muslim vs non-Muslim thing is largely the same and, like car drivers/cyclists, trying to convince someone that it is not the fact that someone is a cyclist/driver that makes them a bellend is near on impossible. Especially when the other party doesn't want to hear that answer.
p.s. I'm a total atheist and think that religion is at the core of most hatred on Earth.
Zod said:
PRTVR said:
what is silly is people trying to shut down any discussion regarding Islam, reading AJS's posts I see nothing wrong with them, what I find silly is people trying to shut it down, it really paints you and what you are trying to protect in a bad light, you may feel that you are doing a good job, but in fact you are doing the opposite, I do love the advice to go see an Imam, is he going to be impartial and ready to discuss any failing in his religion?
Of course an Imam won't be impartial, but he will be able to give a more learned view than AJS can get from reading stuff on the internet. Nobody is trying to shut down AJS. AJS- said:
Disastrous
Why would you keep coming back to a thread you find tiresome, just to post how tiresome it is?
Because I think the constant Muslim-bashing threads give a poor account of a motoring website I used to be quite fond of and make it look like some sort of right-wing dadsnet.Why would you keep coming back to a thread you find tiresome, just to post how tiresome it is?
So ultimately it annoys me and I feel compelled to challenge it.
So offensive or at least uncomfortable, rather than tiresome. That's ok.
My original question was about how we identify and separate radical and potentially violent Muslims from moderate and normal Muslims. I don't see that as Muslim bashing. Surely it's a question most Muslims would be keen to answer, and can hopefully contribute to answering?
Are you not perhaps a bit narrow or patronising, and thinking of Muslims as some outside group who will stumble across this site at take umbridge or assume it some closed whites only club, rather than as members of this site quite capable of discussing their faith and not requiring you taking offence on their behalf?
My original question was about how we identify and separate radical and potentially violent Muslims from moderate and normal Muslims. I don't see that as Muslim bashing. Surely it's a question most Muslims would be keen to answer, and can hopefully contribute to answering?
Are you not perhaps a bit narrow or patronising, and thinking of Muslims as some outside group who will stumble across this site at take umbridge or assume it some closed whites only club, rather than as members of this site quite capable of discussing their faith and not requiring you taking offence on their behalf?
Disastrous said:
AJS- said:
Disastrous
Why would you keep coming back to a thread you find tiresome, just to post how tiresome it is?
Because I think the constant Muslim-bashing threads give a poor account of a motoring website I used to be quite fond of and make it look like some sort of right-wing dadsnet.Why would you keep coming back to a thread you find tiresome, just to post how tiresome it is?
So ultimately it annoys me and I feel compelled to challenge it.
You and the other sanctimonious self-lovers on all these threads just jump in and say "You're an idiot - Racist"
You do not want debate, you want back slapping for from your mutual masturbation club.
We have two people here with opposing views who are proffering ideas and at least trying to help each other understand their contrary viewpoints, might be nice to see how that pans out. But you and the "I already know what's right" boys don't want that do you?
I should really stop wasting my time here but it amazes me that you can't see how you all come across, like petulant, sniggering little boys.
AJS addresses every point put to him and you know what, he might be proved to be talking complete rubbish but lets let him try eh? then if he's hoist by his own petard we might all learn something.
Right, I'm backing away from this.
I do think there is too much shutting down of debate here but I also think it's healthy that people are challenging views from both sides. However this is the second time in a week that I have posted some pretty acerbic - unnecessarily acerbic - comments. I'm letting it get to me and I don't like how I'm coming across.
My apologies to those I may have upset.
Sorry for all the edits, I'm trying to communicate my sincerity but it's hard in a thread like this not to appear agenda driven.
I do think there is too much shutting down of debate here but I also think it's healthy that people are challenging views from both sides. However this is the second time in a week that I have posted some pretty acerbic - unnecessarily acerbic - comments. I'm letting it get to me and I don't like how I'm coming across.
My apologies to those I may have upset.
Sorry for all the edits, I'm trying to communicate my sincerity but it's hard in a thread like this not to appear agenda driven.
Edited by br d on Tuesday 22 December 18:10
Edited by br d on Tuesday 22 December 18:12
Edited by br d on Tuesday 22 December 18:18
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