Martin Mcguinnes dead
Discussion
JuniorD said:
Of course they didn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
What an odd post.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
JuniorD said:
ali_kat said:
The British Army are getting some flack on social media today, but they never put bombs designed to kill & main in shopping centres full of Mothers and children.
Of course they didn't.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
And although it says "There are allegations taken seriously by inquiries that elements of the British state security forces helped the UVF carry out the bombings"
Those inquires were in 1993, during a TV documentary on the bombings that named the UVF as the perpetrators, and which alleged that elements of British security forces were involved in the attack.
Which the UBF denied "The entire operation was from its conception to its successful conclusion, planned and carried out by our volunteers aided by no outside bodies. In contrast to the scenario painted by the programme, it would have been unnecessary and indeed undesirable to compromise our volunteers anonimity [sic] by using clandestine Security Force personnel, British or otherwise, to achieve [an] objective well within our capabilities. ... "
ali_kat said:
JuniorD said:
ali_kat said:
The British Army are getting some flack on social media today, but they never put bombs designed to kill & main in shopping centres full of Mothers and children.
Of course they didn't.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
And although it says "There are allegations taken seriously by inquiries that elements of the British state security forces helped the UVF carry out the bombings"
Those inquires were in 1993, during a TV documentary on the bombings that named the UVF as the perpetrators, and which alleged that elements of British security forces were involved in the attack.
Which the UBF denied "The entire operation was from its conception to its successful conclusion, planned and carried out by our volunteers aided by no outside bodies. In contrast to the scenario painted by the programme, it would have been unnecessary and indeed undesirable to compromise our volunteers anonimity [sic] by using clandestine Security Force personnel, British or otherwise, to achieve [an] objective well within our capabilities. ... "
In which case I take from that you trust members of the UVF ahead of members of the British Army.
Jinx said:
JuniorD said:
Of course they didn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
That was the UVF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
Martin McGuinness never went to war, the war came to him. It came to his streets, it came to his city, it came to his community.
Jinx, you can't simply bat away the issue of lack of democracy at the time McGuinness joined PIRA because it is pivotal to the resurgence of PIRA.
You obviously know this, but for others, a recap of the situation might be worthwhile:
You obviously know this, but for others, a recap of the situation might be worthwhile:
OPB REP said:
206. Northern Ireland was given its own constitution the same year, in a set of measures which were seen initially as temporary pending the unification of the North and South by mutual consent.
Unionists won 40 of the 52 seats in Stormont and effectively institutionalised their own position of advantage.
One of Stormont’s early acts was to remove the safeguards for the catholic minority.
All important posts were held by protestants, and local elections were manipulated to ensure a protestant advantage.
For example, in Londonderry 19,000 protestants controlled eight of the 12 wards, leaving only four for 36,000 catholics.
This gave the minority effective and permanent control of the city council.
207. By the early 1960s discrimination had become institutionalised. It was not that legislation was discriminatory in itself, but rather that the way it was applied in practice discriminated against the catholic minority. In 1969 Londonderry was the most deprived city in the United Kingdom. 33,000 of the 36,000 catholics were crowded into the Victorian slums of the Creggan and the Bogside. Unemployment in Londonderry was the highest in the UK. A similar pattern applied in Belfast (with a population of 385,000) and many of the other towns throughout Northern Ireland.
208. Traditional industries such as shipbuilding, textiles and manufacturing declined after 1945. By the late 1960s poverty and social deprivation in the catholic enclaves of Londonderry and Belfast was appalling. In some cases families of 14 lived in four rooms, with children aged five woken at 2a.m. every night to roam the streets, in order to allow sleeping in shifts. This deprivation and discrimination was well known in Stormont.
Captain Terence O’Neill, elected as Prime Minister in 1963, was seen as a responsible reformer with a genuine wish to improve the lot of the catholics. However, much of the protestant community had developed what seemed to be a siege mentality. They had lived through independence and civil war in the South, and had seen the Republic stagnate since independence. They felt that their economic and social advantages were at risk, as was their cultural identity. These attitudes tended to strengthen unionist and loyalist sentiments, perhaps best characterised by the expression ‘No Surrender’.
What concrete alternative did the nationalist population have ? The civil rights movement was met with violence and complete intransigence from the UK/Unionists. Unfortunately a campaign of PIRA violence was the only available option, as sickening as it was.Unionists won 40 of the 52 seats in Stormont and effectively institutionalised their own position of advantage.
One of Stormont’s early acts was to remove the safeguards for the catholic minority.
All important posts were held by protestants, and local elections were manipulated to ensure a protestant advantage.
For example, in Londonderry 19,000 protestants controlled eight of the 12 wards, leaving only four for 36,000 catholics.
This gave the minority effective and permanent control of the city council.
207. By the early 1960s discrimination had become institutionalised. It was not that legislation was discriminatory in itself, but rather that the way it was applied in practice discriminated against the catholic minority. In 1969 Londonderry was the most deprived city in the United Kingdom. 33,000 of the 36,000 catholics were crowded into the Victorian slums of the Creggan and the Bogside. Unemployment in Londonderry was the highest in the UK. A similar pattern applied in Belfast (with a population of 385,000) and many of the other towns throughout Northern Ireland.
208. Traditional industries such as shipbuilding, textiles and manufacturing declined after 1945. By the late 1960s poverty and social deprivation in the catholic enclaves of Londonderry and Belfast was appalling. In some cases families of 14 lived in four rooms, with children aged five woken at 2a.m. every night to roam the streets, in order to allow sleeping in shifts. This deprivation and discrimination was well known in Stormont.
Captain Terence O’Neill, elected as Prime Minister in 1963, was seen as a responsible reformer with a genuine wish to improve the lot of the catholics. However, much of the protestant community had developed what seemed to be a siege mentality. They had lived through independence and civil war in the South, and had seen the Republic stagnate since independence. They felt that their economic and social advantages were at risk, as was their cultural identity. These attitudes tended to strengthen unionist and loyalist sentiments, perhaps best characterised by the expression ‘No Surrender’.
Ructions said:
The UVF, like all other loyalist groups, were controlled by the RUC and/or the British military.
Martin McGuinness never went to war, the war came to him. It came to his streets, it came to his city, it came to his community.
Bit of a stretch on that one given the violence started before the British Military were officially involved. The British Military were sent in to stop the attacks (and somewhat to protect the Catholic Community) and whilst collusion with some individuals and elements is likely this is far and beyond Martin McGuinness never went to war, the war came to him. It came to his streets, it came to his city, it came to his community.
the concept of "controlled" .
BOR said:
What concrete alternative did the nationalist population have ? The civil rights movement was met with violence and complete intransigence from the UK/Unionists. Unfortunately a campaign of PIRA violence was the only available option, as sickening as it was.
There are always other options. Nationalist were the minority.
Today not so much.
ellroy said:
Some tin foil hat wearers out and about today I see.
There is, it seems, no hope for an end to the hatred and myths on PH. A rather apposite eulogy for McGuinnes. What no one is saying on the TV, at least I haven't heard it, is that what forced him and his ilk to the negotiating table was the change in attitude of the USA. I remember that, at least at the time, there was a distinct change of tone from the USA.
But that couldn't be the reason, could it. It was because soon to be saint Martin had his road to Damascus moment.
Or so the future myths will suggest.
Ructions said:
Jinx said:
JuniorD said:
Of course they didn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
That was the UVF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_...
Oh but yes you are right, they weren't shopping centres.
Martin McGuinness never went to war, the war came to him. It came to his streets, it came to his city, it came to his community.
BOR said:
Jinx, you can't simply bat away the issue of lack of democracy at the time McGuinness joined PIRA because it is pivotal to the resurgence of PIRA.
You obviously know this, but for others, a recap of the situation might be worthwhile:
It is also worth adding, for the benefit of those who do not know, that at that time in local government elections only rate-payers were entitled to votes (and business owners had extra votes). Catholics tended to be more poor and less likely to have a job and so were less likely to be rate payers. Thus they were disenfranchised. Derry particularly suffered under this system. You obviously know this, but for others, a recap of the situation might be worthwhile:
OPB REP said:
206. Northern Ireland was given its own constitution the same year, in a set of measures which were seen initially as temporary pending the unification of the North and South by mutual consent.
Unionists won 40 of the 52 seats in Stormont and effectively institutionalised their own position of advantage.
One of Stormont’s early acts was to remove the safeguards for the catholic minority.
All important posts were held by protestants, and local elections were manipulated to ensure a protestant advantage.
For example, in Londonderry 19,000 protestants controlled eight of the 12 wards, leaving only four for 36,000 catholics.
This gave the minority effective and permanent control of the city council.
207. By the early 1960s discrimination had become institutionalised. It was not that legislation was discriminatory in itself, but rather that the way it was applied in practice discriminated against the catholic minority. In 1969 Londonderry was the most deprived city in the United Kingdom. 33,000 of the 36,000 catholics were crowded into the Victorian slums of the Creggan and the Bogside. Unemployment in Londonderry was the highest in the UK. A similar pattern applied in Belfast (with a population of 385,000) and many of the other towns throughout Northern Ireland.
208. Traditional industries such as shipbuilding, textiles and manufacturing declined after 1945. By the late 1960s poverty and social deprivation in the catholic enclaves of Londonderry and Belfast was appalling. In some cases families of 14 lived in four rooms, with children aged five woken at 2a.m. every night to roam the streets, in order to allow sleeping in shifts. This deprivation and discrimination was well known in Stormont.
Captain Terence O’Neill, elected as Prime Minister in 1963, was seen as a responsible reformer with a genuine wish to improve the lot of the catholics. However, much of the protestant community had developed what seemed to be a siege mentality. They had lived through independence and civil war in the South, and had seen the Republic stagnate since independence. They felt that their economic and social advantages were at risk, as was their cultural identity. These attitudes tended to strengthen unionist and loyalist sentiments, perhaps best characterised by the expression ‘No Surrender’.
What concrete alternative did the nationalist population have ? The civil rights movement was met with violence and complete intransigence from the UK/Unionists. Unfortunately a campaign of PIRA violence was the only available option, as sickening as it was.Unionists won 40 of the 52 seats in Stormont and effectively institutionalised their own position of advantage.
One of Stormont’s early acts was to remove the safeguards for the catholic minority.
All important posts were held by protestants, and local elections were manipulated to ensure a protestant advantage.
For example, in Londonderry 19,000 protestants controlled eight of the 12 wards, leaving only four for 36,000 catholics.
This gave the minority effective and permanent control of the city council.
207. By the early 1960s discrimination had become institutionalised. It was not that legislation was discriminatory in itself, but rather that the way it was applied in practice discriminated against the catholic minority. In 1969 Londonderry was the most deprived city in the United Kingdom. 33,000 of the 36,000 catholics were crowded into the Victorian slums of the Creggan and the Bogside. Unemployment in Londonderry was the highest in the UK. A similar pattern applied in Belfast (with a population of 385,000) and many of the other towns throughout Northern Ireland.
208. Traditional industries such as shipbuilding, textiles and manufacturing declined after 1945. By the late 1960s poverty and social deprivation in the catholic enclaves of Londonderry and Belfast was appalling. In some cases families of 14 lived in four rooms, with children aged five woken at 2a.m. every night to roam the streets, in order to allow sleeping in shifts. This deprivation and discrimination was well known in Stormont.
Captain Terence O’Neill, elected as Prime Minister in 1963, was seen as a responsible reformer with a genuine wish to improve the lot of the catholics. However, much of the protestant community had developed what seemed to be a siege mentality. They had lived through independence and civil war in the South, and had seen the Republic stagnate since independence. They felt that their economic and social advantages were at risk, as was their cultural identity. These attitudes tended to strengthen unionist and loyalist sentiments, perhaps best characterised by the expression ‘No Surrender’.
Emanresu said:
Cold said:
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It could be argued that without people like him the Peace Process wouldn't have been required in the first place. White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
think I would of preferred Gerry first but still..... 
King Herald said:
A brief glance at the history of the English in Ireland will give an inkling of why some Irish are so bitter toward English rule.
White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
Pray tell, how did the English cause the potato blight? White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
JuniorD said:
So you read the paragraphs immediately before the one you quoted?
In which case I take from that you trust members of the UVF ahead of members of the British Army.
The UVF statement has much more of a ring of truth around it than that of the former (disgraced) members of the British Army that were cited.In which case I take from that you trust members of the UVF ahead of members of the British Army.
If wiki entires were not able to e written & edited by anyone with an axe to grind... I'd put more belief into it.
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