Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

captain_cynic said:

Killboy said:

Mortarboard said:

Yup, so brexit chaos can be blamed on those dastardly labour something somethings......

M.

I am looking forward to the first thread blaming brexit issues on Labour

First?

They've been blaming Labour for it not going perfectly since the whole sordid mess began, didn't seem to matter that the Tories have had a majority the entire time.

Really? Got any examples?

Haven't you heard, they're part of the Remoaner Islington Champagne Socialist Dinner Party Elite who have been thwarting "real" Brexit ever since the vote, trying to reverse the result, hating democracy and putting people in prison for saying they're English.

Though that was common knowledge.

You could have just said no. would have saved a few pixels

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

The charge was that Brexit supporters have been blaming Labour for the "failure" (not my word) of Brexit. I don't recall that accusation being made. If you can point to a specific example of Labour being blamed then I'll concede the point. Your obvious attempt to broaden the scope is obvious.

Anyway, Brexit support or otherwise across the political parties was not uniform. Many Conservative MPs did not support Brexit and indeed campaigned to Remain. Some Labour MPs did support Brexit.

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

The charge was that Brexit supporters have been blaming Labour for the "failure" (not my word) of Brexit. I don't recall that accusation being made. If you can point to a specific example of Labour being blamed then I'll concede the point. Your obvious attempt to broaden the scope is obvious.

Anyway, Brexit support or otherwise across the political parties was not uniform. Many Conservative MPs did not support Brexit and indeed campaigned to Remain. Some Labour MPs did support Brexit.

You tell me not to broaden "the scope", which I'm not doing, then broaden the scope yourself? I'm well aware of you latter, point, it's irrelevant to the question at hand.

I'm directly answering your denial that anybody has blamed Labour for failures of Brexit, when that's precisely what's been done on this thread. As I said, I'm not going searching for it, you want to see it then go have a search yourself.

At least you are now owning up that there are Brexit failures.

[captain_cynic]

CivicDuties said:

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

He's been the one making the arguments that it's all Labours fault it's gone wrong.

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

The charge was that Brexit supporters have been blaming Labour for the "failure" (not my word) of Brexit. I don't recall that accusation being made. If you can point to a specific example of Labour being blamed then I'll concede the point. Your obvious attempt to broaden the scope is obvious.

Anyway, Brexit support or otherwise across the political parties was not uniform. Many Conservative MPs did not support Brexit and indeed campaigned to Remain. Some Labour MPs did support Brexit.

You tell me not to broaden "the scope", which I'm not doing, then broaden the scope yourself? I'm well aware of you latter, point, it's irrelevant to the question at hand.

I'm directly answering your denial that anybody has blamed Labour for failures of Brexit, when that's precisely what's been done on this thread. As I said, I'm not going searching for it, you want to see it then go have a search yourself.

At least you are now owning up that there are Brexit failures.

Are you feeling nangy today? If you're going to assert that people have blamed Labour for the "failure" (not my word, again) of Brexit then you're going to have to back that up because I don't believe you. Put up or desist.
I made it clear that I don't see Brexit as a failure by saying clearly that its not my word! Honestly, some of you guys are obsessed!

Yes I did try to give you a back door out of the obvious hole you had dug for yourself by broadening the debate to include a general discussion about Brexit support or otherwise not being necessarily a party political thing. Keep digging that hole if you must

[andymadmak]

captain_cynic said:

CivicDuties said:

You're honestly telling me you've never seen anyone making those arguments, in all seriousness, in this very thread? That if it wasn't for Remoaners, including "lefty" Labour MPs, trying to thwart Brexit we'd have had a "proper" Brexit, which would be brilliant, instead of the rubbish Brexit we have? I'm not going searching it for you. It's all there. Maybe you haven't follow the whole thread.

He's been the one making the arguments that it's all Labours fault it's gone wrong.

Go on then, quote me. But you can't because, as usual for you you are just making stuff up. Remember your embarrassment when you tried to claim I was banned from the Trump thread? (I've never been banned from any thread in all my years on PH) So please, just stop telling fibs.

[CivicDuties]

"Put up or desist"!

The only hole being dug here is the denial that people are already blaming Labour for the failure of Brexit.

They will be responsible for its ongoing failure once they're in office, if they don't do something drastic about it, that much is true.

I can't remember who it was but I recall several posts in this very thread telling us how we've been denied a proper Brexit because of Labour sabotaging it.

The truth is out there, Mulder.

Edited by CivicDuties on Wednesday 22 May 11:09

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

"Put up or desist"!

I'll take that as you not being able to support your claim. Colour me surprised (not)

[Louis Balfour]

andymadmak said:

Louis Balfour said:

Yes. Once the lines were empty it was the Americans who were offered the EU lines.

How did they single out the Americans? Surely the yanks were mixed in with all the other non EU/non Schengen folk?

Attenzione! Tutti i passaporti americani, queste code qui! Americana passaportas this a lines-a here plis!!!

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

"Put up or desist"!

I'll take that as you not being able to support your claim. Colour me surprised (not)

I'll take that as a further denial of reality on your part. There are 3,600 pages in this thread, you're welcome to re-read them all if you've missed a bit.

[911hope]

CivicDuties said:

I'll take that as a further denial of reality on your part. There are 3,600 pages in this thread, you're welcome to re-read them all if you've missed a bit.

Or more accurately.... 299 pages...

[captain_cynic]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

"Put up or desist"!

I'll take that as you not being able to support your claim. Colour me surprised (not)

The argument is pretty well supported but you just don't want to admit you've lost it.

[andymadmak]

captain_cynic said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

"Put up or desist"!

I'll take that as you not being able to support your claim. Colour me surprised (not)

The argument is pretty well supported but you just don't want to admit you've lost it.

Shouldn't be too hard for you to find an example of Labour being "blamed" then should it - as in "it's all Labours fault" (to quote you) ?

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

captain_cynic said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

"Put up or desist"!

I'll take that as you not being able to support your claim. Colour me surprised (not)

The argument is pretty well supported but you just don't want to admit you've lost it.

Shouldn't be too hard for you to find an example of Labour being "blamed" then should it - as in "it's all Labours fault" (to quote you) ?

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

That can only be interpreted as saying that, on the evidence available so far since leaving, that Brexit benefits do not outweigh the costs, but you still think it was the right thing to do anyway.

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

That can only be interpreted as saying that, on the evidence available so far since leaving, that Brexit benefits do not outweigh the costs, but you still think it was the right thing to do anyway.

Depends what you see as a benefit. Some of the things I identify as benefits do not feature on your radar. Thats fair enough from your standpoint, but I don't share your standpoint. I can say that I genuinely didn't expect things to sort themselves out in the short term given the way that politics works.
Yes, I do still think Brexit was the right thing to do, because the downsides for me of EU membership and the long term direction of travel of the EU did not align with what I believe is/was right for the UK. I don't expect you to understand or accept that, given your vehement condemnation of all things Brexit and your views, frequently expressed on here, about what you think were the true motivations of Brexit voters.

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

That can only be interpreted as saying that, on the evidence available so far since leaving, that Brexit benefits do not outweigh the costs, but you still think it was the right thing to do anyway.

Depends what you see as a benefit. Some of the things I identify as benefits do not feature on your radar. Thats fair enough from your standpoint, but I don't share your standpoint. I can say that I genuinely didn't expect things to sort themselves out in the short term given the way that politics works.
Yes, I do still think Brexit was the right thing to do, because the downsides for me of EU membership and the long term direction of travel of the EU did not align with what I believe is/was right for the UK. I don't expect you to understand or accept that, given your vehement condemnation of all things Brexit and your views, frequently expressed on here, about what you think were the true motivations of Brexit voters.

So intangible benefits which still haven't materialised outweigh the costs so far? Or has some of this EU direction it was heading in manifested into reality and we can say: "Look, the UK is better off out, and here's the data to support that"?

The bad directions the EU was heading in, as predicted at the time of the Referendum were:

1) Ever Closer Union - the UK had an opt out in any case, but has this come to pass for the remaining countries?
2) Expansion to include Turkey, Serbia, Albania, Bosnia etc - this hasn't happened.
3) EU Army - this hasn't happened.
4) Forced adoption of the Euro - this was never going to happen to the UK.

Those are the 4 big ones I remember - which ones have I missed, and can you let us know if they've happened?

So you're right, I struggle to understand how you can see avoiding imaginary things is a benefit which outweighs the costs we've incurred. 8 years on from the vote, I think it's fair to judge how the calamitous predictions of Leave have fared.

Edited by CivicDuties on Wednesday 22 May 13:00

[andymadmak]

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

That can only be interpreted as saying that, on the evidence available so far since leaving, that Brexit benefits do not outweigh the costs, but you still think it was the right thing to do anyway.

Depends what you see as a benefit. Some of the things I identify as benefits do not feature on your radar. Thats fair enough from your standpoint, but I don't share your standpoint. I can say that I genuinely didn't expect things to sort themselves out in the short term given the way that politics works.
Yes, I do still think Brexit was the right thing to do, because the downsides for me of EU membership and the long term direction of travel of the EU did not align with what I believe is/was right for the UK. I don't expect you to understand or accept that, given your vehement condemnation of all things Brexit and your views, frequently expressed on here, about what you think were the true motivations of Brexit voters.

So intangible benefits which still haven't materialised outweigh the costs so far? Or has some of this EU direction it was heading in manifested into reality and we can say: "Look, the UK is better off out, and here's the data to support that"?

The bad directions the EU was heading in, as predicted at the time of the Referendum were:

1) Ever Closer Union - the UK had an opt out in any case, but has this come to pass for the remaining countries?
2) Expansion to include Turkey, Serbia, Albania, Bosnia etc - this hasn't happened.
3) EU Army - this hasn't happened.
4) Forced adoption of the Euro - this was never going to happen to the UK.

Those are the 4 big ones I remember - which ones have I missed, and can you let us know if they've happened?

So you're, right I struggle to understand how you can see avoiding imaginary things is a benefit which outweighs the costs we've incurred. 8 years on from the vote, I think it's fair to judge how the calamitous predictions of Leave have fared.

I think you make the mistake, probably intentionally, of saying that just because things haven't happened yet then that is concrete proof that those things can never happen. I don't share that view. The EU is a long term political project that has a stated aim of ever closer union (to address your first point) . Our opt outs were always precarious in my view (you may disagree) and the gradual extension of QMV, which is necessary for the smooth running of the EU imho, only exacerbates that situation.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary...
This is an informative site for this kind of thing.

4 years after leaving is no time frame really, but some like you are insistent that we judge things in absolute terms now. I don't understand that. We had 40 odd years of the CM/EEC/EU development to judge things by and to assess the direction of travel.

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

Murph7355 said:

Mortarboard said:

Joining schengen would fix a lot of that friction fir traveller's.

M.

We were never in it. Why start now?

You cannot be in Schengen without being in the SM.

You sure about that?

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/scheng...

M.