Yet more feckless wasters.

[martin84]

NorthernBoy said:

His arguments are childish.

And whats your argument so far? Oh sorry, you haven't got one. All you've done is bang on about how I'm supposedly thick. Well done.

NorthernBoy said:

The one about their being more jobs than job seekers, for example, is facile. If he thinks long and hard, he'd realize why.

Actually I said the opposite, that theres more jobseekers than jobs, which is true.

NorthernBoy said:

He genuinely seems to think that you can waste your life at school, act like an employee from hell, pick up no useful skills, and then expect other people to put in the effort to find you work that you like.

Where did I say any of this? No need to make st up.

How about you try and make a proper argument rather than pathetic patronising put downs about how I should go back to school and how I'm thick etc. Whenever I say anything on here, nobody ever comes back with an actual argument. The response is 'the politics of envy' or other unsubstantiated patronising putdowns. Its just an endless tirade of how I'm supposedly stupid, without actually explaining your point of view.

When you're in the wrong you discredit the arguer rather than the argument.

[Lost_BMW]

martin84 said:

How about you try and make a proper argument rather than pathetic patronising put downs about how I should go back to school and how I'm thick etc. Whenever I say anything on here, nobody ever comes back with an actual argument. The response is 'the politics of envy' or other unsubstantiated patronising putdowns. Its just an endless tirade of [b]how I'm supposedly stupid, without actually explaining your point of view.[/]

Oh go on then, I'll have a stab at this. My point of view is framed in the context of your inability to: spell, punctuate, write cogently and form consistent arguments without significant meandering.

I could also add hypocrisy given the personal, patronising and critical comments aimed at various other posters on this and other threads - before you received 'it' back. If you are going to dish it out Martin at least be prepared to take some back.

Now, off to school with you.

[martin84]

Lost_BMW said:

Oh go on then, I'll have a stab at this. My point of view is framed in the context of your inability to: spell, punctuate, write cogently and form consistent arguments without significant meandering.

None of that explains why anything I've said is wrong. Another example of attacking the arguer rather than the argument. Also, someone who replied to my earlier post by screaming 'vouchers' like a crazed drug addict has little right to criticise anybodies writing style.

Lost BMW said:

I could also add hypocrisy given the personal, patronising and critical comments aimed at various other posters on this and other threads - before you received 'it' back. If you are going to dish it out Martin at least be prepared to take some back.

I 'dished out' my point of view and reasons for them. Others ignored them, pretended I said things I never said, made judgements about me without knowing a fking thing about me and proceeded to insult me instead of argue the points I'd put across. These are all traits of unintelligent morons who can't handle being wrong. AndrewW-G at least attempted a proper reply, full of explanations and statistics. You and NorthernBoy can only manage insults and putdowns.

Too many ego's on this site, too many people who's mummy never told them they're actually quite st and not the centre of the universe.

[Potatoes]

Back on topic...

Brother D said:

Your solution?

Maintenance: euthanasia

Preventative maintenance: sterilisation

[martin84]

Potatoes said:

Maintenance: euthanasia

Preventative maintenance: sterilisation

Yeah because the one thing you really need with an ageing population, birth rate lower than the 2.4 children of a bygone era and life expectancy set to hit 80 is less young people to pay for it.

[Lost_BMW]

martin84 said:

Lost_BMW said:

Oh go on then, I'll have a stab at this. My point of view is framed in the context of your inability to: spell, punctuate, write cogently and form consistent arguments without significant meandering.

None of that explains why anything I've said is wrong. Another example of attacking the arguer rather than the argument. Also, someone who replied to my earlier post by screaming ? 'vouchers' like a crazed drug addict has little right to criticise anybodiessic writing style.

Lost BMW said:

I could also add hypocrisy given the personal, patronising and critical comments aimed at various other posters on this and other threads - before you received 'it' back. If you are going to dish it out Martin at least be prepared to take some back.

I 'dished out' my point of view and reasons for them. Others ignored them, pretended I said things I never said, made judgements about me without knowing a fking thing about me and proceeded to insult me instead of argue the points I'd put across. These are all traits of unintelligent morons who can't handle being wrong. AndrewW-G at least attempted a proper reply, full of explanations and statistics. You and NorthernBoy can only manage insults and putdowns.

Too many ego's on this site, too many people who's mummy never told them they're actually quite st and not the centre of the universe.

Ironic, given your reply is littered with technical errors!

I'll leave the point about you being the first to dish out the insults for others to check.

But at least you're fun to 'debate' with, and have a heart of gold... well, it looks a little like gold in strong sunlight. Just remember to stay downwind, TTFN.

Edited by Lost_BMW on Sunday 3rd June 00:21

[Potatoes]

martin84 said:

Potatoes said:

Maintenance: euthanise leachers

Preventative maintenance: sterilise leacher breeders

Yeah because the one thing you really need with an ageing population, birth rate lower than the 2.4 children of a bygone era and life expectancy set to hit 80 is less young people to pay for it.

EFA - hoping that clarifies my point

[martin84]

Lost_BMW said:

Ironic, given your reply is littered with technical errors!

I'l leave the point about you being the first to dish out the insults for others to check.

But at least you're fun to 'debate' with, and have a heart of gold... well, it looks a little like gold in strong sunlight. Just remember to stay downwind, TTFN.

Oh how ironic, right after commenting about my technical errors!

Before you go, you might want to consider how it is standard practice to start a sentence with a capital letter and putting three dots after something hardly works in your favour when criticising how others write.

[Potatoes]

martin84 said:

Oh how ironic, right after commenting about my technical errors!

Before you go, you might want to consider how it is standard practice to start a sentence with a capital letter and putting three dots after something hardly works in your favour when criticising how others write.

[Lost_BMW]

Typo spotted and corrected before your post, but a good try! Now go back and see if you can find and correct all those in your posts. We'll mark it in the morning. Night, night.

Oh, had you not heard of ellipsis?

[martin84]

Lost_BMW said:

Typo spotted and corrected before your post, but a good try! Now go back and see if you can find and correct all those in your posts. We'll mark it in the morning. Night, night.

So you're not actually going to bother responding to any of my points? You're just going to nitpick about spelling and scream 'vouchers!!!' at everything?

Single, are you? What a surprise.

[Lost_BMW]

Martin, if your command of spelling, grammar and construction was as good as you appear to believe you might be more successful and have less need to feel bitter. I'm only trying to help.

[AndrewW-G]

martin84 said:

Potatoes said:

Maintenance: euthanasia

Preventative maintenance: sterilisation

Yeah because the one thing you really need with an ageing population, birth rate lower than the 2.4 children of a bygone era and life expectancy set to hit 80 is less young people to pay for it.

That is of course, assuming that the "young people to pay for it" are have a strong work ethic and are capable of productive employment. I'm currently of the opinion, that many of our younger workers / none workers, will ultimately struggle to compete on the global stage, given their poor and unfocused education.

[martin84]

Lost_BMW said:

Martin, if your command of spelling, grammar and construction was as good as you appear to believe you might be more successful and have less need to feel bitter. I'm only trying to help.

I never said anything about spelling, grammar or construction. You did. I made points about how a voucher based welfare system wouldn't work and would be too costly. I made other points about the failing jobs market and my own ideas on how to improve it. Nobody is responding to that, you're just sitting there like a dhead picking on spelling while the forums most abusive poster (NorthernBoy) has fked off after his unsubstantiated rant.

[Potatoes]

AndrewW-G said:

That is of course, assuming that the "young people to pay for it" are have a strong work ethic and are capable of productive employment. I'm currently of the opinion, that many of our younger workers / none workers, will ultimately struggle to compete on the global stage, given their poor and unfocused education.

Exactly

[GavinPearson]

martin84 said:

AndrewW-G said:

1: Massive uncontrolled influx of none UK residents, many with superior education and attitude (currently working on a project, with a Lithuanian chap, who even though he is the most junior on the team, has a masters and is super keen to be involved at every point . . UK equivalent, just moans and gets upset when he can't clock off at 5pm on the dot . . .guess who's going to get the boot first, if push came to shove!)

Aside from withdrawing from the EU theres not much we can do about EU residents coming here. You can't really complain about it if you're benefitting from it yourself. Your Lithuanian chap will probably ps off once he's earned enough though. They reckon many immigrants are leaving the UK now because theres less of a gravy train for them to leech off.

I personally doubt the Lithuanian will leave, he's already shown he's prepared to get off his backside and move many hundreds of miles to a strange country where English is his second language, he's not taking benefits, but what he is doing is showing willing to work. His attitude will probably get him promoted to a better job.

martin84 said:

AndrewW-G said:

2: UK education focus changed to soft none vocational subjects and ensuring that everybody who wants to spend 3 years at Uni, could do, even though they really wont get anything out of it (my assistant last year, had a degree in nutrition, yet was incapable of organising his working day and wasn't renewed, as it took too much time to micro manage him, to facilitate the completion of the most mundane tasks)

I think opening up higher education to more people is a great thing to do but the unavoidable trade off is you inevitably make their degrees worth less as a result. Schools have shifted to a focus of 'you must go to Uni if you want to get anywhere' and most people now don't get their first job until their early 20s. Plenty of people get jobs based on degrees irrelevent to the job they've got but think about what this does to people who don't have a degree; they're viewed as REALLY useless by most employers now.

It depends on the job they want to do. You don't need a degree to dig a ditch. If you want to learn a trade you need to show willing and figure out how to get up in the morning and turn up on time, while the employer makes you do the jobs few others want to, and in exchange you learn something. In time you have a skill with value, like being able to plumb, or lay bricks. But apparently for many this is just too much.

martin84 said:

AndrewW-G said:

ETA: And if you really want to help more people into work, reduce business rates to a sensible level, for employers taking on the apparently difficult to place, unskilled unemployed . . . . . . . .a smallish unit costs £5.5k per year in rates, with nothing in return . . . . would that money not be better spent on more staff

The Valuations Office struggle with common sense generally. Where I live there's been a lot of shop closures in the last couple of years so to make it easier for the ones who remain, their rates have gone up because the Govt are 'losing money.' You and me can see this will only result in more closures, harder conditions for small businesses and lead further to a point where only conglomerates can survive on the high street. Most people don't realise to run a medium sized shop in an average town centre is £60,000 a year in rates and rent before you've bought anything to sell, insured the premesis, paid for utilities, employed any staff etc.

I said on this forum a few weeks ago the best way to give the long term unemployed/young people etc a chance is to make them less of a risk for employers. Right now theres a large cost involved and much red tape if you want to remove them later, if they were easier to get rid of if they didn't do well then maybe companies would take a punt on a young inexperienced person more often?

If the local government is charging excessive rates then they need to rightsize so they can lower rates. The same goes for the national government. This means cutting benefits, spending more efficiently, improving the efficiency of the NHS and civil service. Lower taxes equals increased global competitiveness equals jobs. And the expanding companies will be willing to take people on, assuming they are willing to work for the pay on offer and have the right attitude.

[martin84]

AndrewW-G said:

That is of course, assuming that the "young people to pay for it" are have a strong work ethic and are capable of productive employment. I'm currently of the opinion, that many of our younger workers / none workers, will ultimately struggle to compete on the global stage, given their poor and unfocused education.

Well ultimately you don't know what someone is capable of unless you give them a chance. With the jobs market as it is with plenty of experienced people unemployed and the disincentives to give chances (which we discussed earlier) it's very hard to convince an employer to take a punt on somebody who on paper isn't what they're looking for, which makes it nearly impossible for a young person to get a job. If education is broken then thats where our focus should be.

I don't know a great deal about the education system personally. I never went to University, I got bored of school very easily. I was described by my teachers as being naturally gifted, on the rare occasion I put my mind to something I'd come up with A* quality work in every subject without much effort because I'd naturally 'take to things.' One of my teachers said I could've gone to Cambridge if I put my mind to it but I never did, I had the wrong attitude at school and did nothing more than fill out my name in one of my exams just to wind my teachers up. My Science teacher described me as a waste of talent, which didnt hit home to me until later.

I left school at 16 and got a summer job cleaning cars. Used the money I raised to do my driving lessons at 17 and at 18 I went for a job where the hiring manager recognised my surname as he knew my Dad who later put a word in as well as advice for me to 'not fk it up' if I get the job, which I did. I later tried running my own business which went well for a few months but then failed.

Sorry I know I'm babbling but I dread to think what would've happened if I didn't get that lucky start 10 years ago. It's not a totally tragic poverty ridden upbringing obviously but I can empathise with people who feel they're not being given a chance and I might not be a rich banker but I've done alright since then, much better than many expected me to so there is a way back. If people want to make personal judgements about me, maybe it'd help if you actually knew something about me.

Just don't completely write people off, is all I'm saying.

[NorthernBoy]

martin84 said:

Where did I say any of this? No need to make st up.

How about you try and make a proper argument rather than pathetic patronising put downs about how I should go back to school and how I'm thick etc. Whenever I say anything on here, nobody ever comes back with an actual argument. The response is 'the politics of envy' or other unsubstantiated patronising putdowns. Its just an endless tirade of how I'm supposedly stupid, without actually explaining your point of view.

When you're in the wrong you discredit the arguer rather than the argument.

Hence, when I picked up your lie about there being no jobs, and gave an example of the offers I get, you blustered and called me a tt rather than accept your errors...

I know that you'll never, ever accept responsibility for your situation, but it's of your own making. It is pitiful, your whining, and blaming everyone else for your own choices.

[AndrewW-G]

NorthernBoy said:

I know that you'll never, ever accept responsibility for your situation, but it's of your own making. It is pitiful, your whining, and blaming everyone else for your own choices.

In all fairness, he does say in the post above, that he wasn't capable of making a success of his own business.

[martin84]

NorthernBoy said:

Hence, when I picked up your lie about there being no jobs, and gave an example of the offers I get, you blustered and called me a tt rather than accept your errors...

I never said there were no jobs. I said there weren't enough. I'm still right by the way. You then tried to show off how marvellous you are by bragging about how many job offers you get every week as though I'm supposed to care about you.

NorthernBoy said:

I know that you'll never, ever accept responsibility for your situation, but it's of your own making. It is pitiful, your whining, and blaming everyone else for your own choices.

You don't know what my situation is. I don't know anything about you either. You're very keen to jump to judgement about someone you know nothing about. Is this how you treat everybody in life or do you only do it hiding behind your keyboard?