Chavez is dead

[Art0ir]

turbobloke said:

The information I have is from what I've read, not from living there or even visiting, and based on that there may well be quite a few fingers in pies.

Chavez has been accused of using billions of dollars worth of gifts, long-term loans and cheap oil to limit American influence in the region. While ostensibly aimed at the poor in keeping with fine socialist principles, Venezuela’s largesse has been benefiting people in e.g. Nicaragua in unintended (or intended) ways.

Reports say that on the outskirts of Managua there's a sign "Welcome to District Hugo Chavez" and people in Nicaragua say they've been helped, but 'obscene riches are being amassed' according to investigative journalist Chamorro who alleges that a powerful elite has 'corruptly siphoned off millions of dollars of Venezuelan aid'. Chavez’s opponents point to a similar phenomenon in Venezuela, but then they would.

Whatever the degree of truth in this, the amount of money that was sent abroad (est $80bn) when schools, hospitals and infrastructure in Venezuela are coping with underinvestment is a triumph of pure international anti-Americanism over domestic socialist ideals. Then again triumph isn't the best word.

And what about Mubarak? Long time friend of the Western world until recently. The US alone sent him $60Billion, of which he personally pocketed around 20.

[baz1985]

From time immemorial riches have always, perhaps inexorably, been accumulated to the disadvantage of fellow human beings. The acquisition of international political capital and influence is inextricably associated with capital transfers to other nation states.

[Andy Zarse]

Art0ir said:

turbobloke said:

The information I have is from what I've read, not from living there or even visiting, and based on that there may well be quite a few fingers in pies.

Chavez has been accused of using billions of dollars worth of gifts, long-term loans and cheap oil to limit American influence in the region. While ostensibly aimed at the poor in keeping with fine socialist principles, Venezuela’s largesse has been benefiting people in e.g. Nicaragua in unintended (or intended) ways.

Reports say that on the outskirts of Managua there's a sign "Welcome to District Hugo Chavez" and people in Nicaragua say they've been helped, but 'obscene riches are being amassed' according to investigative journalist Chamorro who alleges that a powerful elite has 'corruptly siphoned off millions of dollars of Venezuelan aid'. Chavez’s opponents point to a similar phenomenon in Venezuela, but then they would.

Whatever the degree of truth in this, the amount of money that was sent abroad (est $80bn) when schools, hospitals and infrastructure in Venezuela are coping with underinvestment is a triumph of pure international anti-Americanism over domestic socialist ideals. Then again triumph isn't the best word.

And what about Mubarak? Long time friend of the Western world until recently. The US alone sent him $60Billion, of which he personally pocketed around 20.

Thank God this country isn't stupid enough to have a massive overseas aid budget which, even in a time of austerity, the Prime Minister thinks should not be cut as "it's the right thing to do"...


Oh, wait!

[Countdown]

Andy Zarse said:

MarshPhantom said:

I dont't think Chavez used to spend Christmas with Jimmy Savile either.

I don't think Thatcher did either.

Daily Telegraph said:

He relished his association with pillars of the establishment. He referred to the Duke of Edinburgh, with cosy familiarity, as “the Boss”, and once reportedly asked the Queen Mother: “Will you send me to the Tower if I said you were beautiful?” He also formed an improbable friendship with Margaret Thatcher, and was a frequent visitor to Chequers for Christmas and the New Year during her tenure —

[MX7]

Countdown said:

Daily Telegraph said:

He relished his association with pillars of the establishment. He referred to the Duke of Edinburgh, with cosy familiarity, as “the Boss”, and once reportedly asked the Queen Mother: “Will you send me to the Tower if I said you were beautiful?” He also formed an improbable friendship with Margaret Thatcher, and was a frequent visitor to Chequers for Christmas and the New Year during her tenure —

Carol Thatcher says otherwise.

[Dixie68]

Art0ir said:

turbobloke said:

The information I have is from what I've read, not from living there or even visiting, and based on that there may well be quite a few fingers in pies.

Chavez has been accused of using billions of dollars worth of gifts, long-term loans and cheap oil to limit American influence in the region. While ostensibly aimed at the poor in keeping with fine socialist principles, Venezuela’s largesse has been benefiting people in e.g. Nicaragua in unintended (or intended) ways.

Reports say that on the outskirts of Managua there's a sign "Welcome to District Hugo Chavez" and people in Nicaragua say they've been helped, but 'obscene riches are being amassed' according to investigative journalist Chamorro who alleges that a powerful elite has 'corruptly siphoned off millions of dollars of Venezuelan aid'. Chavez’s opponents point to a similar phenomenon in Venezuela, but then they would.

Whatever the degree of truth in this, the amount of money that was sent abroad (est $80bn) when schools, hospitals and infrastructure in Venezuela are coping with underinvestment is a triumph of pure international anti-Americanism over domestic socialist ideals. Then again triumph isn't the best word.

And what about Mubarak? Long time friend of the Western world until recently. The US alone sent him $60Billion, of which he personally pocketed around 20.

Are you saying that he was good for Venezuela because he wasn't as bad as another dictator in another country?

[otolith]

Dixie68 said:

Are you saying that he was good for Venezuela because he wasn't as bad as another dictator in another country?

Not meaning to suggest that Chavez was a similar monster, but there were plenty of fellow travellers who were apologists for Uncle Joe and used the "not as bad as Hitler" card.

[Murph7355]

muffinmenace said:

...

The Left have a much bigger voting base than the right and if they keep promising free things they can't lose

Sounds familiar...

[Halb]

MX7 said:

Carol Thatcher says otherwise.

I think she probably would.
Bit like Piers Morgan saying he never met him, when his autobiography says he did.

[MX7]

Halb said:

MX7 said:

Carol Thatcher says otherwise.

I think she probably would.
Bit like Piers Morgan saying he never met him, when his autobiography says he did.

Was Savile good to you when he came for Christmas?

[Halb]

MX7 said:

Was Savile good to you when he came for Christmas?

Oh he was very good, i sat on his knee and shined his fix'it medal, he came over loads.

[MX7]

Halb said:

MX7 said:

Was Savile good to you when he came for Christmas?

Oh he was very good, i sat on his knee and shined his fix'it medal, he came over loads.

Was it a white Christmas?

[sjn2004]

dandarez said:

sjn2004 said:

One hour, thats how long I'd give you as a gringo if you went to Caracas before being robbed or held up.

No chance of that happening in our Utopia. Bet they even let psychos out over there, saying they're reformed and safe. Bet some of them would even decapitate an innocent bystander. Bet their hospitals are dreadful places, where thousands die needlessly. I agree must be absolutely dreadful. Bet they have surveilance cameras everywhere spying on the people. Good god, imagine being robbed or mugged in the street, christ, that is absolutely unthinkable.

Phew! Thank god for our utopia.




oh wait a minute...

Your post only confirms one thing, that you've never been to Caracas!

[dandarez]

sjn2004 said:

dandarez said:

sjn2004 said:

One hour, thats how long I'd give you as a gringo if you went to Caracas before being robbed or held up.

No chance of that happening in our Utopia. Bet they even let psychos out over there, saying they're reformed and safe. Bet some of them would even decapitate an innocent bystander. Bet their hospitals are dreadful places, where thousands die needlessly. I agree must be absolutely dreadful. Bet they have surveilance cameras everywhere spying on the people. Good god, imagine being robbed or mugged in the street, christ, that is absolutely unthinkable.

Phew! Thank god for our utopia.




oh wait a minute...

Your post only confirms one thing, that you've never been to Caracas!

You should never assume anything. I've been to Chavez's biggest friend too, Cuba. And walked round the real stricken back streets of Havana - if it had been anywhere else in the world I would probably have been lying in the gutter dead.

Here, in our utopia today, a teenage schoolgirl got on public transport bus but didn't arrive at school. She died within minutes in a pool of blood on said public transport after being knifed to death. Have you been here lately?

[MX7]

dandarez said:

Here, in our utopia today, a teenage schoolgirl got on public transport bus but didn't arrive at school. She died within minutes in a pool of blood on said public transport after being knifed to death. Have you been here lately?

You are fking ridiculous, and verging upon being vile.

[V41LEY]

Chavs are dead ! (leaps for joy) When did that happen ?

















oops - sorry misread thread.

[Guybrush]

Interesting article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289326/Ho...

[Halb]

"Chávez supported the creation of a series of Bolivian Missions which claimed to be aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions. A 2010 OAS report indicated achievements in addressing illiteracy, healthcare and poverty, and economic and social advances. Barry Cannon wrote that "most areas of spending have increased". "Spending on education as a percentage of GDP stood at 5.1% in 2006, as opposed to 3.4% in the last year of the Caldera government." Spending on health "has increased from 1.6% of GDP in 2000 to 7.7% in 2006". Spending on housing "receives low public support", increasing only "from 1% in GDP to 1.6% in 2006". Teresa A. Meade, wrote that Chávez's popularity "rests squarely on the lower classes who have benefited from these health initiatives and similar policies poverty rates fell from 42 to 34 percent from 2000 to 2006, still leaving over 30 percent in this oil-rich nation below the poverty line".

The Centre for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) reported that the Venezuelan economy grew on average by 11.85% in the period 2004–2007. According to The Washington Post, citing statistics from the United Nations, poverty in Venezuela stood at 28% in 2008, down from 55.44% in 1998 before Chávez got into office. Economist Mark Weisbrot found that, "During the ... economic expansion, the poverty rate was cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty fell by 72 percent. These poverty rates measured only cash income, and did take into account increased access to health care or education." Under his presidency, the Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality, dropped from nearly 0.5 in 1998 to 0.39 in 2011, putting Venezuela behind only Canada in the Western Hemisphere. Nicholas Kozloff, Chávez's biographer, stated of Chávez's economic policies: "Chávez has not overturned capitalism, he has done much to challenge the more extreme, neo-liberal model of development."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Poli...

[mybrainhurts]

BOR said:

THIS is a dictator (the one on the left)

Would it be treason to suggest that's the spitting image of an elderly Prince Charles...?

[Dixie68]

Halb said:

"Chávez supported the creation of a series of Bolivian Missions which claimed to be aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions. A 2010 OAS report indicated achievements in addressing illiteracy, healthcare and poverty, and economic and social advances. Barry Cannon wrote that "most areas of spending have increased". "Spending on education as a percentage of GDP stood at 5.1% in 2006, as opposed to 3.4% in the last year of the Caldera government." Spending on health "has increased from 1.6% of GDP in 2000 to 7.7% in 2006". Spending on housing "receives low public support", increasing only "from 1% in GDP to 1.6% in 2006". Teresa A. Meade, wrote that Chávez's popularity "rests squarely on the lower classes who have benefited from these health initiatives and similar policies poverty rates fell from 42 to 34 percent from 2000 to 2006, still leaving over 30 percent in this oil-rich nation below the poverty line".

The Centre for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) reported that the Venezuelan economy grew on average by 11.85% in the period 2004–2007. According to The Washington Post, citing statistics from the United Nations, poverty in Venezuela stood at 28% in 2008, down from 55.44% in 1998 before Chávez got into office. Economist Mark Weisbrot found that, "During the ... economic expansion, the poverty rate was cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty fell by 72 percent. These poverty rates measured only cash income, and did take into account increased access to health care or education." Under his presidency, the Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality, dropped from nearly 0.5 in 1998 to 0.39 in 2011, putting Venezuela behind only Canada in the Western Hemisphere. Nicholas Kozloff, Chávez's biographer, stated of Chávez's economic policies: "Chávez has not overturned capitalism, he has done much to challenge the more extreme, neo-liberal model of development."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Poli...

From the same article:
Venezuelan Judge Maria Afiuni was arrested in 2009 on charges of corruption, after she ordered the conditional release on bail of banker Eligio Cedeño, who had been held on charges of fraud and other crimes due to alleged illegal currency trading activities. Some human rights officials alleged the arrest was politically motivated; Cedeño "had been in pretrial detention for nearly three years, despite a two-year limit prescribed by Venezuelan law".[296] Cedeño later fled to the U.S. to avoid prosecution. Following Afiuni's arrest, several groups, including the United Nations, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, the Episcopal Conference of Venezuela, Human Rights Watch, the Law Society of England and Wales, the U.S. Department of State, and the European Union Parliament accused Chávez of "creating a climate of fear" among Venezuela's legal profession.[296][297][2][298][299][300][301][302] The European Parliament called it "an attack on the independence of the judiciary by the President of a nation, who should be its first guarantor".[303] A director of Human Rights Watch said, "Once again the Chávez government has demonstrated its fundamental disregard for the principle of judicial independence."

More on Judge Maria Afiuni:
President Hugo Chávez called the judge a "bandit", applauded her arrest, and said she should be put away in prison for 30 years.[19] He also suggested that she had been bribed, and that Simon Bolivar would have had her shot.[20] The Caracas Bar Association asserts that the judge's decision to free Cedeño was legal, while the government says it was improper to release him without prosecutors present at the hearing.[21]
Several international groups have expressed concern about the arrest of Judge Afiuni. In December 2009, three independent human rights experts of the United Nations' (UN) Working Group on Arbitrary Detention called for Judge Afiuni's immediate and unconditional release;[6][22] they said, "Reprisals for exercising their constitutionally guaranteed functions and creating a climate of fear among the judiciary and lawyers' profession serve no purpose except to undermine the rule of law and obstruct justice".[6] In January 2010, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights issued a protective measure in favor of Maria Lourdes Afiuni.[23] Other groups speaking out against the government's arrest of Judge Afiuni include the Episcopal Conference of Venezuela,[24] Human Rights Watch,[4] the U.S. Department of State,[25] and the Law Society of England and Wales.[26] A director of Human Rights Watch said, "Once again the Chávez government has demonstrated its fundamental disregard for the principle of judicial independence."[4]The Human Rights Foundation has circulated a petition calling for Afiuni’s immediate release. “Afuini’s is an open and shut case that exposes the despotic nature of the Chávez regime like few others,” said HRF president Thor Halvorssen. “Judge Afiuni has withstood years of vitriol by a subservient supreme court and scores of judges that fear something similar will happen to them if they dare to let her go.”[27]
On 8 July 2010, the European Parliament stated that it "Condemns the public statements made by the President of the Republic of Venezuela, insulting and denigrating the judge, demanding a maximum sentence and requesting a modification of the law to enable a more severe penalty to be imposed; considers that these statements are aggravating the circumstances of her detention and constitute an attack on the independence of the judiciary by the President of a nation, who should be its first guarantor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Maria_Lo...