Discussion
I wouldn't say it was a personal insult and there's no need for that, however most of us have argued against your points and you've not backed one up with any reason.
I would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
The point is, it's clear both sides are committing atrocities but you appear to say Israel is doing nothing wrong but defending itself. I however would argue that Israel is the aggressor and Palestine is the victim in this debacle.
I would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
The point is, it's clear both sides are committing atrocities but you appear to say Israel is doing nothing wrong but defending itself. I however would argue that Israel is the aggressor and Palestine is the victim in this debacle.
beanbag said:
I wouldn't say it was a personal insult and there's no need for that, however most of us have argued against your points and you've not backed one up with any reason.
I would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
.
but I have backed it up with reasonI would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
.
Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
Lost soul said:
Mr Snap said:
Lost soul said:
You calling me biased rofl: Or that I know what I know and am happy with my decision
who is to say its not me that knows more than you
Lost soul said:
but I have backed it up with reason
Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
Not trolling, but when have Palestinians tried to blow you up? Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
Also, Christians have set off more bombs in the UK (and USA) than Muslims, which proves f
k all.Lost soul said:
beanbag said:
I wouldn't say it was a personal insult and there's no need for that, however most of us have argued against your points and you've not backed one up with any reason.
I would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
.
but I have backed it up with reasonI would certainly say you're pro-Israel and your views appear to iterate that. Perhaps you have a connection with the place?
.
Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
How about you try and defend the home of a Palestinian just trying to get on with their life until an Israeli bulldozer backed up by the "Israeli Defence Force", comes trundling down the hill. All you have is a few rocks and a sling-shot against men armed with automatic weapons, etc....
You also have to differentiate the Palestinian struggle with Islamic extremism. They are two very different things.
Ultimately, you have to look at the facts. This website is a very interesting insight into things. Both sides are to blame but Israel is very disproportionate in it's responses:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Lost soul said:
but I have backed it up with reason
Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
Cracking logic.Yes I am pro Israel , no Israeli has ever tried to blow me up yet Palestinians have .
No Jew has set off bombs in London yet muslims have
Some bloke down the pub gave me a dirty look therefore it's my inalienable right to kick seven bells out of my neighbour.
Out of interest, if I kick my neighbour out of his house and he retaliates, does that make him a terrorist?
Mr Snap said:
I know that I'm biased and I'm prepared to admit it. This suggests I'm already streets ahead of you in the knowledge stakes.
I'm biased too, but in a pro-Israel kind of way, and I'm prepared to admit it. So that suggests we're level in the knowledge stakes (whatever that might mean). Carry on, as you were etc...P.S. There are too many apologists for terrorism round here, so I'm out. Good luck to those who want to stick up for the Israelis in this forum; you're outnumbered, just like the Israelis, but they don't need any help from us keyboard warriors.
beanbag said:
How about you hang around in Palestine for a while? The Gaza Strip is a good start and then you'll get a real experience in life plus you might see one of those wonderful 2000lb bombs the Israeli air force feel is "an appropriate response" to a measly rocket.
Wonder if you'd feel the same if those "measly rockets" were falling on your house.Lost soul said:
GTIR said:
The majority of Palestinian rockets get intercepted by the Israeli defence force. Each time the Israelis retaliate with "targeted" missile strikes.
bds.
.
So that makes it ok does , it , but I agree the Palestinians are bb
ds. .
ds The thing about Israel using targeted attacks is, to me, totally right! I have been on the wrong end of the missiles coming over from the territories. It happens literally daily. When it gets beyond a certain point, Israel hits the launch sites. Hardly their fault that Hamas place them in civilian areas. Israel often even give advance warning to allow people to leave. It is of course not a long term solution but perhaps people would feel better if Israel with did not defend herself from the rockets, or just chucked back unguided stuff at civilian areas?
The sad fact is that if one looks at the situation with Abbas, there have been significant steps forward which he was unable to continue across the whole territoires after Hamas. He has done two vital things, publically accepted a two state solution and accepting Israel has a right to exist. He also has reduced attacks from his area to next to nothing. That was AFTER Israel unilaterally pulled out. As Hamas stated yet again only days ago, the do not accept Israels right to even exist. They have also stated frequently the attacks from their areas are nothing to do with them and they are trying to stop them.... yet all of a sudden they promise they will stop if Israel agrees to stop air attacks. It makes negotiation extremely difficult.
The situation is also not remotely helped by the right wing in Israel, who are frankly every bit as extreme as Hamas but are at least broadly under the control of Israel and although they have huge political power (Proportional representation at work!) they fortunately don't have enough power to force the military's hand.The present government in Israel is perceived as very militant in the media. In fact, it is not remotely. It has been remarkably restrained against huge pressure internally and criticism that Netanyahu is far to weak. That does not make him right or wrong per se, but in order to understand the situation fully one also has to understand the relevant players and pressures in each side, as well as the history that got us there. As things stand now, it is a tad hard to negotiate with someone who has two governments who have just sort if formed a national unity government but agree on nothing and neither has the power to make any difference in the others area. Abbas has shown himself to be an extremely astute politician, balancing the obvious need for movement with the fact that getting much progress on his own side is extremely hard. The fact he is still alive frankly is testament to his political skills. The future lies with people like him, which his people know, which is why he remains in power by a broadly fair democratic process. Hamas - well, the same cannot be said there clearly.
The true tragedy is that these are two nations who have so much in common, similar values etc both with a history of being kicked about and both so crippled with fear, understandably so,and in one case, a massive lack of education. It is extremely easy to simply blame one side or other, take a simple view etc but the reality is what counts, and the reality is far, far from what most people in Europe perceive it to be.
AW111 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
And fire them from school playgrounds, then get the news crews in when an Israeli retaliatory strike hits a school.
So targetting a school is ok because "they started it" ?Do the Israeli army launch attacks from schools?
Countdown said:
Pappa Lurve
Could you or anybody else explain why, if the Israelis are genuinely in favour of peace and a two-state solution, why they keep on extending and building more Settlements?
Can you explain to me if Israel is that awful, how so many Arabs live there quite happily. I have some dealings with an Arab owned business in Haifa. Haifa is a city in the north of Israel with a 50/50 Jew/Arab split, and who mainly get on fine. It's a prosperous business and the Arabs who own it are pro Israel.Could you or anybody else explain why, if the Israelis are genuinely in favour of peace and a two-state solution, why they keep on extending and building more Settlements?
A couple of years ago a couple of young Israeli girls where killed in Haifa by rockets fired by Hezbollah from southern Lebanon. The Israelis were furious that 2 of their citizens had been murdered, 2 young Israeli girls. So they retaliated as they usually do, 10 fold. This was largely condemned by all and sundry. What wasn't quite so widely reported was the 2 Israeli girls that were killed were Arabs. It mattered not to the Israeli govt, they were Israeli citizens.
Arabs who live peacefully in Israel get to vote, there are Arab MPs, and there is freedom of worship. There are more churches in Israel than synagogues.
Now the Israeli govt are far from perfect, and they can and do lie thru their teeth, and there are jewish extrememists who try their best to wreck everything, and the govt pander to them far too much, but if I had to live anywhere in the middle east (and I hope I never do) Israel is the place I'd choose.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
AW111 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
And fire them from school playgrounds, then get the news crews in when an Israeli retaliatory strike hits a school.
So targetting a school is ok because "they started it" ?Do the Israeli army launch attacks from schools?
If so they may legitimately attack schools that enemy "soldiers" [note] are operating from without warning.
However hospitals aid stations or any building flying/covered by the red cross/red crescent are a different story.
Countdown said:
Pappa Lurve
Could you or anybody else explain why, if the Israelis are genuinely in favour of peace and a two-state solution, why they keep on extending and building more Settlements?
I suggest that is clear when one looks at two factors.... where the settlements are and factor in the ones Israel emptied several years ago. You also need to consider the internal politics as I have already explained. But, its easier to take a simplistic view as demonstrated by your assumption the all Israelis share a fundamental view. Could you or anybody else explain why, if the Israelis are genuinely in favour of peace and a two-state solution, why they keep on extending and building more Settlements?
I'm all for Israel defending itself but the blanket bombing of civilian areas of Gaza like the Israelis have done in the past is not a fit and proper response imo.
I'd much rather see Israeli special forces and their army covertly entering Gaza and taking care of the anti-Israeli terrorists that way.
What would a more proportionate response have been, firing an equal number of unguided rockets back in an indescriminate manner? I don't think that would have been a good idea. I'd implore Israel to stick to improving their interception systems until such time as a deal can be reached.
I'd much rather see Israeli special forces and their army covertly entering Gaza and taking care of the anti-Israeli terrorists that way.
speedy_thrills said:
BlackLabel said:
I used to have a lot of sympathy for Israel however their disproportionate response to the Hamas rocket attacks...
Building the rocket interceptor system?What would a more proportionate response have been, firing an equal number of unguided rockets back in an indescriminate manner? I don't think that would have been a good idea. I'd implore Israel to stick to improving their interception systems until such time as a deal can be reached.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Can you explain to me if Israel is that awful, how so many Arabs live there quite happily. I have some dealings with an Arab owned business in Haifa. Haifa is a city in the north of Israel with a 50/50 Jew/Arab split, and who mainly get on fine. It's a prosperous business and the Arabs who own it are pro Israel.
Here's a link that gives a slightly different viewpoint. It's a view shared by many Israelis themselves.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/81653...
Pappa Lurve said:
I suggest that is clear when one looks at two factors.... where the settlements are and factor in the ones Israel emptied several years ago. You also need to consider the internal politics as I have already explained. But, its easier to take a simplistic view as demonstrated by your assumption the all Israelis share a fundamental view.
I don't think all Israelis share the same view and apologies if I gave that impression. I think people such as Gideon Levy and btselem are doing an excellent job under difficult circumstances. However Israel is a democracy and the actions of the Govt should (in theory) reflect the wishes of the people. "Internal politics" is a bit of a "cop out" I'm afraid. Would you be willing to excuse Hamas's actions as "internal politics"?"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
That's a quote from the Israeli officer who killed a12 year old schoolgirl.
Countdown said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Can you explain to me if Israel is that awful, how so many Arabs live there quite happily. I have some dealings with an Arab owned business in Haifa. Haifa is a city in the north of Israel with a 50/50 Jew/Arab split, and who mainly get on fine. It's a prosperous business and the Arabs who own it are pro Israel.
Here's a link that gives a slightly different viewpoint. It's a view shared by many Israelis themselves.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/81653...
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