Poor Russell Brand
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
The left would have us believe that the only ones who can get a good standard of education / life are the rich...
Well, I believe this is a classic example of why there is rift between those who vote left and those who vote right, especially on this forum. Assuming I'm "the left", as is my wife, that isn't what we believe or try to claim. In fact, we couldn't get our head around our next door neighbour spending upwards of £10,000 a year on his 5 year old's private education, when there were perfectly good state schools around.
It seems "the right" on here, who are often very proud to point that out (the bloke who had a picture of Thatcher on his wall) is equally guilty of these broad and incorrect generalisations you yourself mention of "the left". The notion that all poorly raised children are there because of their own doing, the idea that all Labour voters must rely on benefits and cannot be intelligent, are all generalisations that lead to arguments.
Guam said:
L1OFF said:
Pretty much the same story as me, and no doubt an awfull lot of others in this country.
Indeed those of the Left seeking to cause division talk so much Tripe on this topic, is it time for my picture of the Street I grew up in again yet?Guam said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
assume I am not one of those "left" types, you speak of.
I dont know are you?In general terms we keep hearing the same old cobblers on here about other members of PH being all right leaning powerfully built company directors and those who have built businesses have typically enjoyed a blessed existence with every advantage (boomers etc).
its all divisive b
ks.There is plenty of opportunity in this country to better oneself for those capable of recognising it and taking advantage of it.
Background may well throw obstacles in the way, but it does not deprive people permanently of progressing to a better lifestyle imho!
I stated very early on it doesn't have much to do with wealth, but to do with a child's upbringing. I imagine what I share, with yourself and if not you, at least Pan Pan Pan and andymadmak, is the fortune of having parents who cared and taught me what you say is true.
Whilst you may believe that without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing, I don't and this will be where our opinions will differ. It is of course possible, but I believe it's a significant handicap.
SpeedMattersNot said:
Guam said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
assume I am not one of those "left" types, you speak of.
I dont know are you?In general terms we keep hearing the same old cobblers on here about other members of PH being all right leaning powerfully built company directors and those who have built businesses have typically enjoyed a blessed existence with every advantage (boomers etc).
its all divisive b
ks.There is plenty of opportunity in this country to better oneself for those capable of recognising it and taking advantage of it.
Background may well throw obstacles in the way, but it does not deprive people permanently of progressing to a better lifestyle imho!If you had read the topic from the start, you would know! But no, I am not.
I stated very early on it doesn't have much to do with wealth, but to do with a child's upbringing. I imagine what I share, with yourself and if not you, at least Pan Pan Pan and andymadmak, is the fortune of having parents who cared and taught me what you say is true.
Whilst you may believe that without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing, I don't and this will be where our opinions will differ. It is of course possible, but I believe it's a significant handicap.
Now in the the top 1% of earners in the UK but more to the point despite the poison that the mother fed me I have managed to stay married for 20 years and bring up two lovely successful (so far) daughters.
It is not the hand you are dealt that makes the difference it is the decisions you make in life that make the difference.
SpeedMattersNot said:
Whilst you may believe that without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing, I don't and this will be where our opinions will differ. It is of course possible, but I believe it's a significant handicap.
There is a gap and the stats back you up. If anyone is interested, google Pupil Premium statistics and you get some interesting figures about the difference of progress between disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds. There are always exceptions to the rule with everything, but the normal distribution it's quite surprising at what age the gaps appear and continually increase. Guam said:
hondafanatic said:
There is a gap and the stats back you up. If anyone is interested, google Pupil Premium statistics and you get some interesting figures about the difference of progress between disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds. There are always exceptions to the rule with everything, but the normal distribution it's quite surprising at what age the gaps appear and continually increase.
Some of the most successful people in society were abysmal at school, the Stats are not the whole story here.There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Guam said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
If you had read the topic from the start, you would know! But no, I am not.
I stated very early on it doesn't have much to do with wealth, but to do with a child's upbringing. I imagine what I share, with yourself and if not you, at least Pan Pan Pan and andymadmak, is the fortune of having parents who cared and taught me what you say is true.
Whilst you may believe that without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing, I don't and this will be where our opinions will differ. It is of course possible, but I believe it's a significant handicap.
Yes we will differ significantly I and many like me have succeeded without such encouragement and with zero advantages to fall back on, is it tougher well of course it is, does it preclude success not at all.I stated very early on it doesn't have much to do with wealth, but to do with a child's upbringing. I imagine what I share, with yourself and if not you, at least Pan Pan Pan and andymadmak, is the fortune of having parents who cared and taught me what you say is true.
Whilst you may believe that without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing, I don't and this will be where our opinions will differ. It is of course possible, but I believe it's a significant handicap.
What precludes success is lack of self belief and feeling that there is no hope, perhaps if people spent more time telling these youngsters that they CAN do it rather than they will never do it because of their background, social inadequacies and a myriad of other reasons why failure is inevitable, they may start to believe that making the effort is worthwhile.
Previous generations had palpable restrictions placed upon them but over time the very real "class" based restraints dissipated and people made their way up the ladder.
Its time to stop excusing and begin encouraging imho! ANd I mean society at large not Parents as you seem to be suggesting?
I was lucky enough to realise I could do better because of my parents and yes, as a parent myself now, I would never expect it to be the job of anyone else but me and my family to support, educate and inspire my daughter and any further children I have.
Soov535 said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
........without that encouragement you can still achieve as much than someone with a good upbringing.......
Of course you can.McCain called me with a bid on your chip.
gruffalo said:
I have done alright for myself, from a single parent family, told all my life by my delightful mother that I was thick and would never amount to anything, joined the forces at 16 to get away from said mother.
Now in the the top 1% of earners in the UK but more to the point despite the poison that the mother fed me I have managed to stay married for 20 years and bring up two lovely successful (so far) daughters.
It is not the hand you are dealt that makes the difference it is the decisions you make in life that make the difference.
People can win a hand at poker with an off-suit 2-7 but if you can't see you're not better off with A-A, we will always differ on opinion. Now in the the top 1% of earners in the UK but more to the point despite the poison that the mother fed me I have managed to stay married for 20 years and bring up two lovely successful (so far) daughters.
It is not the hand you are dealt that makes the difference it is the decisions you make in life that make the difference.
As I said above, I don't think everyone possesses this drive. As you say, you took a bold move to join the forces. I know I naturally do not hold that confidence in myself, even at my current age, to make a step like that.
Guam said:
hondafanatic said:
There is a gap and the stats back you up. If anyone is interested, google Pupil Premium statistics and you get some interesting figures about the difference of progress between disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds. There are always exceptions to the rule with everything, but the normal distribution it's quite surprising at what age the gaps appear and continually increase.
Some of the most successful people in society were abysmal at school, the Stats are not the whole story here.But it's not like that happens to everyone with that attitude at school!
Guam said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
Indeed, my Dad went to school with Felix Dennis. My Dad told me several stories where he wouldn't bother turning up, or if he did, he'd not bring his art supplies. He turned out to be a huge success though...
But it's not like that happens to everyone with that attitude at school!
I always felt I was better than how I was characterised by my old man, sometimes being told you are worthless makes you determined to prove them wrong.But it's not like that happens to everyone with that attitude at school!
The reality of existence for every animal is that not all will be successful, its not just a human thing.
However where we are fairly unique is in the tendencies to write people off and not make it clear through positive inputs from society at large that folk CAN succeed despite the apparent odds.
Many successful businessmen have a bankruptcy or two in their background as a result of figuring out how things work rather than how we think they should
It did not prevent them ultimately being successful.
Cheers
The problem is when we generalise and don't distinguish each child's needs are different. There won't be a single policy that fits all likely candidates. Some may appreciate the free school meals, the free music lessons and help them realise with a good hot meal and joining in with other musicians they can do something more productive in their evenings than roaming the streets with other 'yoofs'. Other kids may see this as making them stand out for being different and, do what you did and almost rebel yourself into success, though others I feel would resent those who seemingly pitied them and try harder to fit into that category and throw away any potential they do have.
Either way, I stand by my point, that typically we do not start off from the same starting blocks. You were fortunate enough to have that drive, I was fortunate enough to have the nurture. It's the ones without the drive and those without the nurture of upbringing are the most disadvantaged.
FredClogs said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am not saying that `everyone' can be a company director, in the same way that not everyone can be a fighter pilot or a skilled surgeon. Doing these types of jobs requires a specific level of intelligence, and other skill sets. But such intelligence and skills sets are not the sole pre
serve of the `rich' that the socialists bleat on about all the time. A person from a poor background
can have these attributes and still make a success of themselves.
My Dad was prepared to work his socks off, and whilst coming from humble beginnings, we did quite well, and he passed the `always do your best' work ethic to my siblings and 1.
But the point that brought the attitudinal differences home to me, was school. It was nothing special just a secondary modern, and I was a long, long way off being the sharpest tool in the box even there.
Some other kids there took the p*ss out of me for always trying to work hard and do my best, and the ones who did this most, were the, have a fag around the bike sheds when and they should have been in class, I already know it all, school is just crap, kids, who came from council houses with vote labour placards on them.
Some years later I saw one of these individuals who had been particularly mocking and nasty standing at a bus stop, whilst I drove past him in my new sports car! that I had worked hard and saved for.
We both recognised each other, and he looked a bit embarrassed and immediately turned away.
He had been given exactly the same schooling as me, and in all probability was much brighter, but brought down by what I refer to as the `council house mentality' that is the key difference between
those who support the left and the right, and I have seen nothing which leads me to change that view.
Apologies for prematurely sent off post.
Pan Pan Pan represents what I refer to as 'Wimpy housed, failed 11 plus, wannabee, narcissistic, paranoid, gotta have a new car, cut the lawn so the neighbors don't natter mentality'serve of the `rich' that the socialists bleat on about all the time. A person from a poor background
can have these attributes and still make a success of themselves.
My Dad was prepared to work his socks off, and whilst coming from humble beginnings, we did quite well, and he passed the `always do your best' work ethic to my siblings and 1.
But the point that brought the attitudinal differences home to me, was school. It was nothing special just a secondary modern, and I was a long, long way off being the sharpest tool in the box even there.
Some other kids there took the p*ss out of me for always trying to work hard and do my best, and the ones who did this most, were the, have a fag around the bike sheds when and they should have been in class, I already know it all, school is just crap, kids, who came from council houses with vote labour placards on them.
Some years later I saw one of these individuals who had been particularly mocking and nasty standing at a bus stop, whilst I drove past him in my new sports car! that I had worked hard and saved for.
We both recognised each other, and he looked a bit embarrassed and immediately turned away.
He had been given exactly the same schooling as me, and in all probability was much brighter, but brought down by what I refer to as the `council house mentality' that is the key difference between
those who support the left and the right, and I have seen nothing which leads me to change that view.
Apologies for prematurely sent off post.
MarshPhantom said:
FredClogs said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am not saying that `everyone' can be a company director, in the same way that not everyone can be a fighter pilot or a skilled surgeon. Doing these types of jobs requires a specific level of intelligence, and other skill sets. But such intelligence and skills sets are not the sole pre
serve of the `rich' that the socialists bleat on about all the time. A person from a poor background
can have these attributes and still make a success of themselves.
My Dad was prepared to work his socks off, and whilst coming from humble beginnings, we did quite well, and he passed the `always do your best' work ethic to my siblings and 1.
But the point that brought the attitudinal differences home to me, was school. It was nothing special just a secondary modern, and I was a long, long way off being the sharpest tool in the box even there.
Some other kids there took the p*ss out of me for always trying to work hard and do my best, and the ones who did this most, were the, have a fag around the bike sheds when and they should have been in class, I already know it all, school is just crap, kids, who came from council houses with vote labour placards on them.
Some years later I saw one of these individuals who had been particularly mocking and nasty standing at a bus stop, whilst I drove past him in my new sports car! that I had worked hard and saved for.
We both recognised each other, and he looked a bit embarrassed and immediately turned away.
He had been given exactly the same schooling as me, and in all probability was much brighter, but brought down by what I refer to as the `council house mentality' that is the key difference between
those who support the left and the right, and I have seen nothing which leads me to change that view.
Apologies for prematurely sent off post.
Pan Pan Pan represents what I refer to as 'Wimpy housed, failed 11 plus, wannabee, narcissistic, paranoid, gotta have a new car, cut the lawn so the neighbors don't natter mentality'serve of the `rich' that the socialists bleat on about all the time. A person from a poor background
can have these attributes and still make a success of themselves.
My Dad was prepared to work his socks off, and whilst coming from humble beginnings, we did quite well, and he passed the `always do your best' work ethic to my siblings and 1.
But the point that brought the attitudinal differences home to me, was school. It was nothing special just a secondary modern, and I was a long, long way off being the sharpest tool in the box even there.
Some other kids there took the p*ss out of me for always trying to work hard and do my best, and the ones who did this most, were the, have a fag around the bike sheds when and they should have been in class, I already know it all, school is just crap, kids, who came from council houses with vote labour placards on them.
Some years later I saw one of these individuals who had been particularly mocking and nasty standing at a bus stop, whilst I drove past him in my new sports car! that I had worked hard and saved for.
We both recognised each other, and he looked a bit embarrassed and immediately turned away.
He had been given exactly the same schooling as me, and in all probability was much brighter, but brought down by what I refer to as the `council house mentality' that is the key difference between
those who support the left and the right, and I have seen nothing which leads me to change that view.
Apologies for prematurely sent off post.
Heavens I even use the bus sometimes. In your twisted view that would make everyone who drove past me in their cars whilst `I' was standing there better than me.
is this how you determine who might be better or lesser than you. Seems a bit simplistic to me.
Guam said:
hondafanatic said:
I did say they were exceptions. But if you have a look it does represent a normal distribution.
There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Okay explain this then, lets take the Asian Migrants who came here in the sixties and seventies many of them had limited education, they had in many cases only the clothes they stood up in, their assets having been siezed, and yet despite all their very real disadvantages the vast majority of them now run successful businesses.There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Drive and ambition count as much as any other factor imho!
All I'm pointing out is that there are statistics that highlight the current issues for children today between those from disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds in today's education system across the country as whole.
I'll happily point out many exceptions where individuals have bucked the stats and worked their way to being a success.
I'm not making judgments, I'm merely pointing out that there are well researched stats that will show the difference between pupils success rates based on their background.
hondafanatic said:
Guam said:
hondafanatic said:
I did say they were exceptions. But if you have a look it does represent a normal distribution.
There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Okay explain this then, lets take the Asian Migrants who came here in the sixties and seventies many of them had limited education, they had in many cases only the clothes they stood up in, their assets having been siezed, and yet despite all their very real disadvantages the vast majority of them now run successful businesses.There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Drive and ambition count as much as any other factor imho!
All I'm pointing out is that there are statistics that highlight the current issues for children today between those from disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds in today's education system across the country as whole.
I'll happily point out many exceptions where individuals have bucked the stats and worked their way to being a success.
I'm not making judgments, I'm merely pointing out that there are well researched stats that will show the difference between pupils success rates based on their background.
Best argument so far too shrink the welfare state.
gruffalo said:
hondafanatic said:
Guam said:
hondafanatic said:
I did say they were exceptions. But if you have a look it does represent a normal distribution.
There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Okay explain this then, lets take the Asian Migrants who came here in the sixties and seventies many of them had limited education, they had in many cases only the clothes they stood up in, their assets having been siezed, and yet despite all their very real disadvantages the vast majority of them now run successful businesses.There are people that smoke their entire life and live to 100. For every one of those cases there are 100 cases of people that weren't so 'lucky'.
Drive and ambition count as much as any other factor imho!
All I'm pointing out is that there are statistics that highlight the current issues for children today between those from disadvantaged and advantaged backgrounds in today's education system across the country as whole.
I'll happily point out many exceptions where individuals have bucked the stats and worked their way to being a success.
I'm not making judgments, I'm merely pointing out that there are well researched stats that will show the difference between pupils success rates based on their background.
Best argument so far too shrink the welfare state.
Only it was their attitude to work and school which made `them' the losers. In later life they found other things to blame for their lack of achievement (It is always someone else's fault, not theirs)
The irony was that some were very bright, certainly a lot brighter than me, they just carried a sh*t attitude with them.
gruffalo said:
I think what we see with today's kids from disadvantaged backgrounds is learnt behaviour caused by an ever increasing dependancy on the state to sport them.
Best argument so far too shrink the welfare state.
Are you suggesting that if we make kids suffer for a simple accident of birth, then it will incentivise them to work harder in life? Sort of 'survival of the fittest' if you will? Do you want to explain the situation to every pre-schooler personally?Best argument so far too shrink the welfare state.
TTwiggy said:
Are you suggesting that if we make kids suffer for a simple accident of birth, then it will incentivise them to work harder in life? Sort of 'survival of the fittest' if you will? Do you want to explain the situation to every pre-schooler personally?
I know this does not fit well with the ethos that sees winners trophies scrapped in place of "finisher" medals, but it is a sad fact of life that, at some stage, sooner or later, and to varying degrees, this is pretty much the case, irrespective of your background. That it has been entirely lost to large proportions of recent generations (and seemingly the education system) does little to alter the fact.Digga said:
TTwiggy said:
Are you suggesting that if we make kids suffer for a simple accident of birth, then it will incentivise them to work harder in life? Sort of 'survival of the fittest' if you will? Do you want to explain the situation to every pre-schooler personally?
I know this does not fit well with the ethos that sees winners trophies scrapped in place of "finisher" medals, but it is a sad fact of life that, at some stage, sooner or later, and to varying degrees, this is pretty much the case, irrespective of your background. That it has been entirely lost to large proportions of recent generations (and seemingly the education system) does little to alter the fact.Guam said:
TTwiggy said:
But I'm not talking about 'everyone's a winner' sportsdays, I'm talking about what appears to be a suggestion that removing/reducing benefits will make children work harder. I suppose that was the case once upon a time, except they went up chimneys and down mines - few made it to the board of directors (many didn't make it past 13).
So Mr Dickens care to tell me how old you are now?Pan Pan Pan said:
TEKNOPUG said:
MarshPhantom said:
I like how he is obviously better than anyone who ever caught a bus.
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