Peugeot-Citroen agrees deal with GM to buy Vauxhall-Opel
Discussion
PurpleTurtle said:
You may call it badge snobbery, people within the industry would describe it as affiliation to a brand. Yes, I have owned several German marques largely due to their (perceived) reliability. That said, the Porsche 996 I owned was an absolute s
theap of a Friday car that left me so frustrated I would never touch the marque again.
We own as a second car a 13yo Honda FR-V. It's a utility mum truck, but I can hardly claim any kind of snobbery driving that. In the mid-1990s I also owned through necessity a beat up Volvo 340DL Variomatic, arguably one of the least cool cars on the road. I know my place in the pecking order of motoring.
I also commented that the Insignia I spent a week driving was a very capable car, if you had bothered to read my post in full. I also mentioned 'the last twenty years' because, VX220 aside, the output of Vauxhall in that time has otherwise completely passed me by. In my youth we had the Astra/Nova GTE hot hatches, the Cavalier SRi 130, the daddy that was the Lotus Carlton, all great cars. Nowadays ... tumbleweed. I am sure there are Vauxhall owners reading this who will attest to the greatness of their cars (VXRs?) but they have completely gone under my radar. As a lifelong car enthusiast who tries to see the good in all marques then that is a problem for their brand.
In my opinion (this being a forum for people with opinions on cars, after all) Vauxhall have generally been making the beigest of beige cars for the last two decades, the lights-out-missionary-position of motoring. When our mum truck comes up for replacement we will be looking at Ford/Honda/VW/Nissan/Seat/Volvo/Honda/Toyota and many more (so hardly 'a badge snob') but absolutely not a Vauxhall. That is a problem for their Marketing department to solve, not me.
Thanks for the 'idiotic' label. Next time maybe try not to commit serial apostrophe abuse in the same sentence, it tends to undermine your point.
Spot on (except judging Porsche on the the 996 which is absurd; almost every car they have made for the last 30 years has been brilliant, but I digress). We have a VW, a Ford, a Mazda and a Suzuki... but I've never even considered a Vauxhall, a brand I identify solely with morons in baseball caps and salesmen with those annoying Bluetooth things in their ear. Honda have made some epic cars over the years but it still took them decades to shake their image in the UK as cars for pensioners. They are so horribly lost I'm not convinced they will ever find their way back.theap of a Friday car that left me so frustrated I would never touch the marque again. We own as a second car a 13yo Honda FR-V. It's a utility mum truck, but I can hardly claim any kind of snobbery driving that. In the mid-1990s I also owned through necessity a beat up Volvo 340DL Variomatic, arguably one of the least cool cars on the road. I know my place in the pecking order of motoring.
I also commented that the Insignia I spent a week driving was a very capable car, if you had bothered to read my post in full. I also mentioned 'the last twenty years' because, VX220 aside, the output of Vauxhall in that time has otherwise completely passed me by. In my youth we had the Astra/Nova GTE hot hatches, the Cavalier SRi 130, the daddy that was the Lotus Carlton, all great cars. Nowadays ... tumbleweed. I am sure there are Vauxhall owners reading this who will attest to the greatness of their cars (VXRs?) but they have completely gone under my radar. As a lifelong car enthusiast who tries to see the good in all marques then that is a problem for their brand.
In my opinion (this being a forum for people with opinions on cars, after all) Vauxhall have generally been making the beigest of beige cars for the last two decades, the lights-out-missionary-position of motoring. When our mum truck comes up for replacement we will be looking at Ford/Honda/VW/Nissan/Seat/Volvo/Honda/Toyota and many more (so hardly 'a badge snob') but absolutely not a Vauxhall. That is a problem for their Marketing department to solve, not me.
Thanks for the 'idiotic' label. Next time maybe try not to commit serial apostrophe abuse in the same sentence, it tends to undermine your point.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 11th March 19:29
D-Angle said:
Just speculation, but could Brexit be a factor in this decision? Vauxhall are one of the biggest selling brands in the UK, which is one of the biggest markets in Europe for new cars. Tariffs etc could make it more worthwhile to build cars in Luton and Ellesmere Port to sell in the UK, also any trade deal we agree further afield that is better than what the EU has negotiated would leave them in a position to take advantage of it?
Not sure. So many parts are sourced overseas, is is a true advantage for local costs or a marginal cost? A lot of interesting points made so far and i know i'm covering some again but,
GM is losing sales, market share and well everything, everywhere.It makes sense for them to withdraw from an area of the world its failing flat in and save some $$$.
PSA now becomes second only to VWA in size, they will now look at some brand engineer and we will in time end up with IMO something along the lines of
Peugeot, Big higher end stuff. 4x4's etc (audi)
Citroen, Mid sized family stuff with funky twist (seat)
DS, premium end mid sized stuff (VW)
Opel, bland euro box and rep mobile stuff, everything that wont fit into other brands (skoda)
Vauxhall, lives on only as VXR sports stuff (RS/ GTI/ FR badges) & maybe even another vx220
and as for jobs/ manufacturing it remains to be seen but I think some UK/ German government intervention will limit job losses mid term but as new platforms for models role out etc things will slowly and quietly be wound up.
GM is losing sales, market share and well everything, everywhere.It makes sense for them to withdraw from an area of the world its failing flat in and save some $$$.
PSA now becomes second only to VWA in size, they will now look at some brand engineer and we will in time end up with IMO something along the lines of
Peugeot, Big higher end stuff. 4x4's etc (audi)
Citroen, Mid sized family stuff with funky twist (seat)
DS, premium end mid sized stuff (VW)
Opel, bland euro box and rep mobile stuff, everything that wont fit into other brands (skoda)
Vauxhall, lives on only as VXR sports stuff (RS/ GTI/ FR badges) & maybe even another vx220
and as for jobs/ manufacturing it remains to be seen but I think some UK/ German government intervention will limit job losses mid term but as new platforms for models role out etc things will slowly and quietly be wound up.
A lot of people on this thread are forgetting that GM bought Daewoo then rebranded the cars as bargain basement Chevrolets for the European market. Opel/Vauxhall despite the image have never been a bargain basement brand, perhaps another reason why it made sense for GM to cash it in.
Also easy to forget that Opel had a long engineering history in Germany before GM 'globalised' their business, I can remember when I was lad in the 80s Vauxhalls had a decent reputation for making solid robust cars. Cars like the Senator and Carlton were seen as cut price BMW beaters, oh how times have changed:
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/...
Also easy to forget that Opel had a long engineering history in Germany before GM 'globalised' their business, I can remember when I was lad in the 80s Vauxhalls had a decent reputation for making solid robust cars. Cars like the Senator and Carlton were seen as cut price BMW beaters, oh how times have changed:
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/...
skippy68 said:
PSA now becomes second only to VWA in size, they will now look at some brand engineer and we will in time end up with IMO something along the lines of
Peugeot, Big higher end stuff. 4x4's etc (audi)
Citroen, Mid sized family stuff with funky twist (seat)
DS, premium end mid sized stuff (VW)
Opel, bland euro box and rep mobile stuff, everything that wont fit into other brands (skoda)
Vauxhall, lives on only as VXR sports stuff (RS/ GTI/ FR badges) & maybe even another vx220
Getting this bit right will be absolutely key to the enterprise. All across Europe Opel is the kind of brand people say "ugh" about much more than they do about Vauxhall in the UK; Most of their sales in Germany are to rental fleets AIUI. Peugeot, Big higher end stuff. 4x4's etc (audi)
Citroen, Mid sized family stuff with funky twist (seat)
DS, premium end mid sized stuff (VW)
Opel, bland euro box and rep mobile stuff, everything that wont fit into other brands (skoda)
Vauxhall, lives on only as VXR sports stuff (RS/ GTI/ FR badges) & maybe even another vx220
There may be a card to play with Vauxhall - British brands have a "premium" attached to them in global markets, so it might be possible to play on that by shunting Vauxhall way upmarket.
D-Angle said:
Just speculation, but could Brexit be a factor in this decision? Vauxhall are one of the biggest selling brands in the UK, which is one of the biggest markets in Europe for new cars. Tariffs etc could make it more worthwhile to build cars in Luton and Ellesmere Port to sell in the UK, also any trade deal we agree further afield that is better than what the EU has negotiated would leave them in a position to take advantage of it?
PSA won't be allowed to sell any GM designed vehicle to a market where GM has a presence IIRCNJH said:
A lot of people on this thread are forgetting that GM bought Daewoo then rebranded the cars as bargain basement Chevrolets for the European market. Opel/Vauxhall despite the image have never been a bargain basement brand, perhaps another reason why it made sense for GM to cash it in.
And there in lies the problem IMO. The 'middle market' brands are being squeezed. They churn them out as low level fleet fodder. Private buyers tend to want (these days) either budget, like Dacia or to a lesser extent Skoda, or premium; German trio, Jag etc.It's testament to middle market brands creating prestige marques; Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, DS, and now Ford offering an advanced trim level Vignale for a premium. Can't really see Vauxhall/Opel slant on that.
irocfan said:
D-Angle said:
Just speculation, but could Brexit be a factor in this decision? Vauxhall are one of the biggest selling brands in the UK, which is one of the biggest markets in Europe for new cars. Tariffs etc could make it more worthwhile to build cars in Luton and Ellesmere Port to sell in the UK, also any trade deal we agree further afield that is better than what the EU has negotiated would leave them in a position to take advantage of it?
PSA won't be allowed to sell any GM designed vehicle to a market where GM has a presence IIRCNJH said:
A lot of people on this thread are forgetting that GM bought Daewoo then rebranded the cars as bargain basement Chevrolets for the European market. Opel/Vauxhall despite the image have never been a bargain basement brand...
...and then they dropped Chevrolet, and rebranded the Korean-developed-and-built cars as Vauxhall/Opel.The Viva/Karl is the Chevrolet Spark, which replaced the Chevrolet/Daewoo Matiz.
NJH said:
Also easy to forget that Opel had a long engineering history in Germany before GM 'globalised' their business, I can remember when I was lad in the 80s Vauxhalls had a decent reputation for making solid robust cars. Cars like the Senator and Carlton were seen as cut price BMW beaters, oh how times have changed:
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/...
I've has several Gsi's and way too many Senators to count, they might have been marketed as cut price BMW and Mercedes beaters but they were great cars.http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/...
I replaced my last 1993 Senator CD 3.0 24v with a BMW E38 740 in 2006 and it was and still is a disappointment as a complete package compared to the Senator.
I think Opel/Vauxhalls will end up being made out of the PSA part bin. If you were open to owning a Peugeot why would you buy a Vauxhall that has the same family of tech instead ? the only reason would be price. If you don't like Peugeots for whatever reason you aren't likely to buy a Vauxhall.
PSA can just produce more of the same bits, which will lower costs, R&D will be slashed - they'll just be restricted to changing shape of panels/light units. All the infrastructure can be doubled up with PSAs (distribution, management etc).
That means they can still sell a new Corsa on three years 0% for £12k or whatever but turn a profit because it cost less to build. They could even become PSA's Dacia.
Interestingly, one of the local Vauxhall dealers opened a Renault/Dacia dealership next door a year or two ago. I wonder how that will be received by PSA.
PSA can just produce more of the same bits, which will lower costs, R&D will be slashed - they'll just be restricted to changing shape of panels/light units. All the infrastructure can be doubled up with PSAs (distribution, management etc).
That means they can still sell a new Corsa on three years 0% for £12k or whatever but turn a profit because it cost less to build. They could even become PSA's Dacia.
Interestingly, one of the local Vauxhall dealers opened a Renault/Dacia dealership next door a year or two ago. I wonder how that will be received by PSA.
B'stard Child said:
I've has several Gsi's and way too many Senators to count, they might have been marketed as cut price BMW and Mercedes beaters but they were great cars.
I replaced my last 1993 Senator CD 3.0 24v with a BMW E38 740 in 2006 and it was and still is a disappointment as a complete package compared to the Senator.
I am a little bit to young to have wanted one when they were around or just missed them when the availability was good (seem to be incredibly rare now), shame as I always though they were cool and a car capable of cracking 150 was a very big deal back in those days. I replaced my last 1993 Senator CD 3.0 24v with a BMW E38 740 in 2006 and it was and still is a disappointment as a complete package compared to the Senator.
In the late 90s I drove a SAAB 900 T16S, absolutely loved that car. GM pretty much destroyed the reputation of SAAB, sadly as this thread indicates they seem to have done the same to Opel over the years. Very difficult to see a way back for them but the obvious marketing route for PSA is in my mind the complete opposite to what many are saying. We all know that nobody buys big French saloons any more, its almost seen as a form of insanity. Well PSA could play on the Germanic heritage of Opel and of course their German R&D base to reboot that sector of cars, bring back some proper autobahnstormers again.
NJH said:
In the late 90s I drove a SAAB 900 T16S, absolutely loved that car. GM pretty much destroyed the reputation of SAAB, sadly as this thread indicates they seem to have done the same to Opel over the years. Very difficult to see a way back for them but the obvious marketing route for PSA is in my mind the complete opposite to what many are saying. We all know that nobody buys big French saloons any more, its almost seen as a form of insanity. Well PSA could play on the Germanic heritage of Opel and of course their German R&D base to reboot that sector of cars, bring back some proper autobahnstormers again.
Like my GM900 and subsequent 9-3 but I was in the minority 
Crafty_ said:
I think Opel/Vauxhalls will end up being made out of the PSA part bin. If you were open to owning a Peugeot why would you buy a Vauxhall that has the same family of tech instead ? the only reason would be price. If you don't like Peugeots for whatever reason you aren't likely to buy a Vauxhall.
PSA can just produce more of the same bits, which will lower costs, R&D will be slashed - they'll just be restricted to changing shape of panels/light units. All the infrastructure can be doubled up with PSAs (distribution, management etc).
That means they can still sell a new Corsa on three years 0% for £12k or whatever but turn a profit because it cost less to build. They could even become PSA's Dacia.
Interestingly, one of the local Vauxhall dealers opened a Renault/Dacia dealership next door a year or two ago. I wonder how that will be received by PSA.
PSA won't turn Opel/Vauxhall into a new Dacia, there would be no point. Dacia are basically built with old Renault parts, you don't need to spend 2 billion euros to do that.PSA can just produce more of the same bits, which will lower costs, R&D will be slashed - they'll just be restricted to changing shape of panels/light units. All the infrastructure can be doubled up with PSAs (distribution, management etc).
That means they can still sell a new Corsa on three years 0% for £12k or whatever but turn a profit because it cost less to build. They could even become PSA's Dacia.
Interestingly, one of the local Vauxhall dealers opened a Renault/Dacia dealership next door a year or two ago. I wonder how that will be received by PSA.
As you said, they will just share the components and try to keep the current marketshare but also make profit in the process. Opel/vauxhall lost 300 M€ this year, PSA acknowledges there is a 2 billion € optimization to be made by 2020 ==> 1,7 billion € of potential profit.
If it's done right, there's no reason why the current customers will not continue to buy the cars. PSA platforms and engines are good, and the Opel ones are nothing special, so as long as the styling is different, it should be fine.
6pi said:
If it's done right, there's no reason why the current customers will not continue to buy the cars. PSA platforms and engines are good, and the Opel ones are nothing special, so as long as the styling is different, it should be fine.
Why wouldn't they do a dacia ? admittedly they've bought a known name to give them a kickstart rather than start from scratch. Fleet sales that have reasonable budget can be shifted to Peugeot, the cheap end of the market that PSA don't really cover can be occupied by Opel.Either way in the big scheme of things for mundane box on four wheels Vauxhall compete with Peugeot and the rest of them right now - why would you continue doing that ? i.e. sell a 2008 and an Astra for roughly the same price, with roughly the same features - it makes no sense.
Anecdotal, but I've heard several people mention in passing that whilst they have previously bought Vauxhalls they wouldn't entertain a PSA based one.
Some people don't like french cars I guess. While I wouldn't necessarily buy a current Vauxhall I haven't see anything from Peugeot since the 205 that is of any interest at all.
Nothing wrong with Opel engines and I'd suggest that for the performance orientated stuff they've done a better job than PSA. All I ever hear from PSA petrol engines are rattles.
The only reason to buy a PSA Vauxhall over a Peugeot will be price. If they try and make the brands compete I can't see its going to end well, if they try and cover different price segments of the market they can shift more volume - people with more budget will look at Peugeots, those without buy Opel/Vauxhalls.
I wonder how well this deal is going down in Germany?
Crafty_ said:
I wonder how well this deal is going down in Germany?
About as well as here I would imagine. Opel's Eisenach plant produces the Adam, the next generation of which will now probably be based on the 108/C1/Aygo platform, which is produced in the Czech Republic. They also make the Corsa, but job losses are difficult to rule out for them.
Edited by D-Angle on Sunday 12th March 10:54
D-Angle said:
About as well as here I would imagine. Opel's Eisenach plant produces the Adam, the next generation of which will now probably be based on the 108/C1/Aygo platform, which is produced in the Czech Republic.
They also make the Corsa, but job losses are difficult to rule out for them.
Surely the nearest thing to the C1/108/Aygo would be the Viva? I'd assume that the Adam will pair up with the DS3 if they decide to keep manufacturing it. They also make the Corsa, but job losses are difficult to rule out for them.
Edited by D-Angle on Sunday 12th March 10:54
D-Angle said:
Opel's Eisenach plant produces the Adam, the next generation of which will now probably be based on the 108/C1/Aygo platform, which is produced in the Czech Republic.
Or, given that the Adam is currently on the Corsa/Punto/500L SCCS platform, it'll share with the next Corsa, which'll almost certainly be on the PSA small modular platform, which is due to appear in the next few years.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff