Israel invaded
Discussion
andymadmak said:
biggbn said:
It is sadly predictable and unsurprising that even though the international community, including military experts etc are now openly criticising Israel's response that we still have faceless Internet Walts defending their actions for whatever reasons. Two wrongs make a right, right?
Is that aimed at me? I hope not!biggbn said:
andymadmak said:
biggbn said:
It is sadly predictable and unsurprising that even though the international community, including military experts etc are now openly criticising Israel's response that we still have faceless Internet Walts defending their actions for whatever reasons. Two wrongs make a right, right?
Is that aimed at me? I hope not!andymadmak said:
Electro1980 said:
andymadmak said:
This is something we didn’t see in Gaza in relation to Hamas leadership
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705...
Thousands protesting. Gives me hope that ordinary Israelis still want peace, and not the eradication of Palestinians as some hysterical posters on here claim. Such a shame that Gazan citizens either didn’t feel able to or weren’t inclined to protest against Hamas.
No one claimed all Israelis want that. They said Israel, as in the government, and some Israelis, want that. Yet again you make stuff up. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705...
Thousands protesting. Gives me hope that ordinary Israelis still want peace, and not the eradication of Palestinians as some hysterical posters on here claim. Such a shame that Gazan citizens either didn’t feel able to or weren’t inclined to protest against Hamas.
Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
biggbn said:
That's quite a 'foot in each camp' stance you have their Andy? Are you really suggesting a lack of protest against an ultra violent extremist movement is indicative of holistic support? I read report the other day in Times of Israel about Gaza citizens chanting anti Hamas and being fired upon for their temerity. Is not standing up against violent, extremist oppression REALLY complicity with said oppression?
No, that’s not exactly what I meant. I said it was such a shame that Gazans either didn’t feel able (in fear) or didn’t feel inclined ( had some support for Hamas) etc…Re- reading I can see how that could be misinterpreted, but what I meant by it was that there would be Gazans of both mind sets.
My subsequent comment about protests over the past ten years was again to highlight that in Israel it is possible to protest and object, whereas in Gaza it clearly isn’t. In making that comment I was again obliquely pointing to the positive aspect that once Netanyahu has gone there can again be movement towards peace from the Israeli side, even after the horrors of the 7th
andymadmak said:
Erm, you added the “all”, not me. As usual it’s you who’s making stuff up. Failing to grasp the point as well. Quelle surprise! Israelis are protesting. Can you point me to any recent (10 years will do) protests against Hamas by Gazans?
That’s some spectacular linguistic gymnastics. Point me to where people have said what you claim? It’s all twisting and turning and tantrums again when called out. You make sweeping statements and then try to wriggle out on some technicality of what you have written. If you didn’t mean all, or most, then I can point to plenty of examples to counter your claims, by showing you some. There will always be someone who supports even the most extreme ideas, and unless you specify who you mean the implication is all or most. Point me to where anyone made the statements you claim.Follow the link. It’s from 2022. Regardless, comparisons about the right to protest are irrelevant. No matter how democratic and free a government it can still be wrong. The right of Israelis to protest has nothing to do with the actions of the government being right or wrong. The fact that there is protest against the government only lends more weight against your support for the IDF killing civilians.
Edited by Electro1980 on Monday 1st April 11:26
Electro1980 said:
That’s some spectacular linguistic gymnastics. Point me to where people have said what you claim? It’s all twisting and turning and tantrums again when called out. You make sweeping statements and then try to wriggle out on some technicality of what you have written. If you didn’t mean all, or most, then I can point to plenty of examples to counter your claims, by showing you some. There will always be someone who supports even the most extreme ideas, and unless you specify who you mean the implication is all or most. Point me to where anyone made the statements you claim.
Follow the link. It’s from 2022. Regardless, comparisons about the right to protest are irrelevant. No matter how democratic and free a government it can still be wrong. The right of Israelis to protest has nothing to do with the actions of the government being right or wrong. The fact that there is protest against the government only lends more weight against your support for the IDF killing civilians.
Follow the link. It’s from 2022. Regardless, comparisons about the right to protest are irrelevant. No matter how democratic and free a government it can still be wrong. The right of Israelis to protest has nothing to do with the actions of the government being right or wrong. The fact that there is protest against the government only lends more weight against your support for the IDF killing civilians.
Edited by Electro1980 on Monday 1st April 11:26
I think the only person having a tantrum here is you. Electro1980 said:
No one claimed all Israelis want that. They said Israel, as in the government, and some Israelis, want that. Yet again you make stuff up.
Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
A few youngsters with a podcast audience of 2 is hardly a protest. Fair play to them, and good luck to them (they’ll need it as Hamas will behead them when caught) but it’s hardly a protest now is it.Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
Does that fact that those who go against Hamas are shot at dawn not bother you?
Again the level to love for Hamas on this thread is baffling.
julian987R said:
A few youngsters with a podcast audience of 2 is hardly a protest. Fair play to them, and good luck to them (they’ll need it as Hamas will behead them when caught) but it’s hardly a protest now is it.
Does that fact that those who go against Hamas are shot at dawn not bother you?
Again the level to love for Hamas on this thread is baffling.
Honestly at this point can you just fDoes that fact that those who go against Hamas are shot at dawn not bother you?
Again the level to love for Hamas on this thread is baffling.
k off with the 'level of love for Hamas'.There is none. At all.
julian987R said:
Electro1980 said:
No one claimed all Israelis want that. They said Israel, as in the government, and some Israelis, want that. Yet again you make stuff up.
Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
A few youngsters with a podcast audience of 2 is hardly a protest. Fair play to them, and good luck to them (they’ll need it as Hamas will behead them when caught) but it’s hardly a protest now is it.Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
Does that fact that those who go against Hamas are shot at dawn not bother you?
Again the level to love for Hamas on this thread is baffling.
Netanyahu has made a political career out of ensuring there’s no peace with the Palestinians. He won his first election by opposing the Oslo peace accords (and promising the Israeli people they could have everything they wanted without granting any concessions…). He’s kept up this nonsense for decades. When it looked like wiser heads might reach a peace deal, he and others conspired to ensure it didn’t happen, including promoting and ensuring funding for Hamas to deliberately destabilise the situation further.
Netanyahu and his ilk are almost a casebook study in how not to broker peace.
Yes, Hamas have committed atrocities. We don’t have to “love” them to point out quite how much responsibility Israel bears for where things stand today - just as Hamas also bears responsibility.
Of course this debate is emotionally charged. But history tells us that the only way to get peace is to overcome the most extreme of entrenched positions on both sides and build a dialogue. Right-wing Israeli politicians have deliberately acted so as to try to ensure that cannot happen. Getting the extremists out of both sides would be a great step.
Of course this means both sides must give some things up. Protests against Netanyahu give me just a little hope in that regard. But there are clearly an awful lot of rather extreme, even crazed, self-confessed Zionists whose sense of entitlement is as large as their sense of irony is small. They will need to be put in their place just as surely as Palestinian zealots (who harbour similarly outrageous views) must be. Hopefully it won’t take all-out war to achieve that.
skwdenyer said:
There’s no love for Hamas. But this insistence on a binary perspective is unhelpful and a part of why this situation has perpetuated.
Netanyahu has made a political career out of ensuring there’s no peace with the Palestinians. He won his first election by opposing the Oslo peace accords (and promising the Israeli people they could have everything they wanted without granting any concessions…). He’s kept up this nonsense for decades. When it looked like wiser heads might reach a peace deal, he and others conspired to ensure it didn’t happen, including promoting and ensuring funding for Hamas to deliberately destabilise the situation further.
Netanyahu and his ilk are almost a casebook study in how not to broker peace.
Yes, Hamas have committed atrocities. We don’t have to “love” them to point out quite how much responsibility Israel bears for where things stand today - just as Hamas also bears responsibility.
Of course this debate is emotionally charged. But history tells us that the only way to get peace is to overcome the most extreme of entrenched positions on both sides and build a dialogue. Right-wing Israeli politicians have deliberately acted so as to try to ensure that cannot happen. Getting the extremists out of both sides would be a great step.
Of course this means both sides must give some things up. Protests against Netanyahu give me just a little hope in that regard. But there are clearly an awful lot of rather extreme, even crazed, self-confessed Zionists whose sense of entitlement is as large as their sense of irony is small. They will need to be put in their place just as surely as Palestinian zealots (who harbour similarly outrageous views) must be. Hopefully it won’t take all-out war to achieve that.
HAMAS LOVER!!!!!Netanyahu has made a political career out of ensuring there’s no peace with the Palestinians. He won his first election by opposing the Oslo peace accords (and promising the Israeli people they could have everything they wanted without granting any concessions…). He’s kept up this nonsense for decades. When it looked like wiser heads might reach a peace deal, he and others conspired to ensure it didn’t happen, including promoting and ensuring funding for Hamas to deliberately destabilise the situation further.
Netanyahu and his ilk are almost a casebook study in how not to broker peace.
Yes, Hamas have committed atrocities. We don’t have to “love” them to point out quite how much responsibility Israel bears for where things stand today - just as Hamas also bears responsibility.
Of course this debate is emotionally charged. But history tells us that the only way to get peace is to overcome the most extreme of entrenched positions on both sides and build a dialogue. Right-wing Israeli politicians have deliberately acted so as to try to ensure that cannot happen. Getting the extremists out of both sides would be a great step.
Of course this means both sides must give some things up. Protests against Netanyahu give me just a little hope in that regard. But there are clearly an awful lot of rather extreme, even crazed, self-confessed Zionists whose sense of entitlement is as large as their sense of irony is small. They will need to be put in their place just as surely as Palestinian zealots (who harbour similarly outrageous views) must be. Hopefully it won’t take all-out war to achieve that.
skwdenyer said:
julian987R said:
Electro1980 said:
No one claimed all Israelis want that. They said Israel, as in the government, and some Israelis, want that. Yet again you make stuff up.
Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
A few youngsters with a podcast audience of 2 is hardly a protest. Fair play to them, and good luck to them (they’ll need it as Hamas will behead them when caught) but it’s hardly a protest now is it.Palestinians have protested against Hamas:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6017348...
Now, let’s talk about the Israeli governments reaction to those protests, and the background of the protests, that have been going on for over a year.
It’s clear you don’t understand what is going on, and are only here carrying on some sort of personal crusade against anyone you perceive as “left wing” and tilting at windmills. So much so you repeatedly make up things no one has said and then have a tantrum when called out on it.
Does that fact that those who go against Hamas are shot at dawn not bother you?
Again the level to love for Hamas on this thread is baffling.
Netanyahu has made a political career out of ensuring there’s no peace with the Palestinians. He won his first election by opposing the Oslo peace accords (and promising the Israeli people they could have everything they wanted without granting any concessions…). He’s kept up this nonsense for decades. When it looked like wiser heads might reach a peace deal, he and others conspired to ensure it didn’t happen, including promoting and ensuring funding for Hamas to deliberately destabilise the situation further.
Netanyahu and his ilk are almost a casebook study in how not to broker peace.
Yes, Hamas have committed atrocities. We don’t have to “love” them to point out quite how much responsibility Israel bears for where things stand today - just as Hamas also bears responsibility.
Of course this debate is emotionally charged. But history tells us that the only way to get peace is to overcome the most extreme of entrenched positions on both sides and build a dialogue. Right-wing Israeli politicians have deliberately acted so as to try to ensure that cannot happen. Getting the extremists out of both sides would be a great step.
Of course this means both sides must give some things up. Protests against Netanyahu give me just a little hope in that regard. But there are clearly an awful lot of rather extreme, even crazed, self-confessed Zionists whose sense of entitlement is as large as their sense of irony is small. They will need to be put in their place just as surely as Palestinian zealots (who harbour similarly outrageous views) must be. Hopefully it won’t take all-out war to achieve that.
Unreal said:
It's hard to disagree that a path to peace can only come from moderates and compromises on both sides. I can see how the Israeli population might change their government but not how the Palestinians will rid themselves of Hamas.
Indeed. That’s why the financial and other support for Hamas organised by Israel was so dangerously fked up. Getting them in was easy; getting them out much harder.skwdenyer said:
Unreal said:
It's hard to disagree that a path to peace can only come from moderates and compromises on both sides. I can see how the Israeli population might change their government but not how the Palestinians will rid themselves of Hamas.
Indeed. That’s why the financial and other support for Hamas organised by Israel was so dangerously fked up. Getting them in was easy; getting them out much harder.I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.
P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just in Gaza, with even a greater rise in The West Bank. Therefore, if there's greater unity among Hamas and Palestinians that could promote a peace agreement/deal/plan long term and the formation of a Palestinian government but of course the Palestinians need a place that's theirs to govern.
A two state solution is the only solution.
Edited by JJJ. on Monday 1st April 17:03
JJJ. said:
987R will be back with some spurious comments now. Possibly fictional too.
Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.
I think you are confused - I have no love for Hamas the biggest oppressor whom keep their civilians down and allow next to zero in rights. Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.
julian987R said:
JJJ. said:
987R will be back with some spurious comments now. Possibly fictional too.
Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.
I think you are confused - I have no love for Hamas the biggest oppressor whom keep their civilians down and allow next to zero in rights. Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.
JJJ. said:
I don't know. Since they've never had what a nation is entitled too it's rather rash to jump to any conclusions or negativity. Peace has come from armed insurrections and warfare in past, no reason to think differently in the Palestinian situation.
I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.
P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just on Gaza, with even a greater rise in The West Bank. Therefore, if there's greater unity among Hamas and Palestinians that could promote a peace agreement/deal/plan long term and the formation of a Palestinian government but of course the Palestinians need a place that's theirs to govern.
The trouble is, this is the long term I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.
P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just on Gaza, with even a greater rise in The West Bank. Therefore, if there's greater unity among Hamas and Palestinians that could promote a peace agreement/deal/plan long term and the formation of a Palestinian government but of course the Palestinians need a place that's theirs to govern.
What is now Gaza is a small part of what was earmarked for Palestinians under the UN resolutions. Israel in effect co-opted all of it in violation of the UN. Egypt captured what is now Gaza and held it until Israel retook it in 1967.
By 1995, peace was looking likely. The Oslo accords, whilst imperfect, were an important step. Israel followed through with withdrawal of troops.
Then along came Netanyahu, implacably opposed to Oslo. He swiftly cancelled further withdrawals and stymied the peace process.
When Barak succeeded Netanyahu, he wasted no time in restarting a process towards peace. As an aside, to form a Government, Barak had to persuade a coalition party to replace their leader, a convicted felon; to pretend Israeli politics is of the standards expected in the West is a mistake.
Barak was clear about the issues. Palestinian independence was the only defensible position:
Barak said:
Every attempt {by the State of Israel} to keep hold of this area {the West Bank and Gaza} as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don't vote it is an apartheid state.
He also finally withdrew Israeli troops from Lebanon after over 2 decades.Barak’s work looked likely to beat fruit. This was intolerable to the Likud hardliners. Sharon deliberately stirred up trouble, kicking off the Second Intifada, and then using that as justification for his hard line against peace. With Sharon’s victory, the process begun at Camp David (and continuing the timeline from the Oslo accords) was cancelled. Instead, Sharon opted to turn Gaza into a ghetto, devoid of independent statehood.
The problem? The Palestinian Authority, however imperfect, remained relatively benign and amenable to a peace process. It just wasn’t a big enough bogeyman to justify reactionary aggression. To fix this, many Israelis in positions of power deliberately set about promoting and supporting Hamas. Once Hamas were in power, they wasted no time in whipping up the international community to brand Hamas as terrorists with whom no negotiations could happen.
Every time there’s a chance of peace, the hardline Zionists work hard to torpedo it.
That doesn’t make Hamas innocent in all of this. But it does cast the allegations of unilateral terrorism in a different light. Those who cannot learn the mistakes of history are destined to repeat them.
JJJ. said:
I don't know. Since they've never had what a nation is entitled too it's rather rash to jump to any conclusions or negativity. Peace has come from armed insurrections and warfare in past, no reason to think differently in the Palestinian situation.
I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.
P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just in Gaza, with even a greater rise in The WestBank. Therefore, if there's greater unity among Hamas and Palestinians that could promote a peace agreement/deal/plan long term and the formation of a Palestinian government but of course the Palestinians need a place that's theirs to govern.
A two state solution is the only solution.
more like. I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.
P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just in Gaza, with even a greater rise in The West
A two state solution is the only solution.
Edited by JJJ. on Monday 1st April 17:03
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