Israel invaded

[julian987R]

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

987R will be back with some spurious comments now. Possibly fictional too.
Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.

I think you are confused - I have no love for Hamas the biggest oppressor whom keep their civilians down and allow next to zero in rights.

I bet you play Ping Pong badly.

With slight of hand I'd have stolen your bat before you even reached the table.

[JJJ.]

skwdenyer said:

JJJ. said:

I don't know. Since they've never had what a nation is entitled too it's rather rash to jump to any conclusions or negativity. Peace has come from armed insurrections and warfare in past, no reason to think differently in the Palestinian situation.
I could be incorrect but hell one has to stay positive looking long term.

P.s. From what I tell from many different international media outlets there has been a rise in support for Hamas by the Palestinians, not just on Gaza, with even a greater rise in The West Bank. Therefore, if there's greater unity among Hamas and Palestinians that could promote a peace agreement/deal/plan long term and the formation of a Palestinian government but of course the Palestinians need a place that's theirs to govern.

The trouble is, this is the long term

What is now Gaza is a small part of what was earmarked for Palestinians under the UN resolutions. Israel in effect co-opted all of it in violation of the UN. Egypt captured what is now Gaza and held it until Israel retook it in 1967.

By 1995, peace was looking likely. The Oslo accords, whilst imperfect, were an important step. Israel followed through with withdrawal of troops.

Then along came Netanyahu, implacably opposed to Oslo. He swiftly cancelled further withdrawals and stymied the peace process.

When Barak succeeded Netanyahu, he wasted no time in restarting a process towards peace. As an aside, to form a Government, Barak had to persuade a coalition party to replace their leader, a convicted felon; to pretend Israeli politics is of the standards expected in the West is a mistake.

Barak was clear about the issues. Palestinian independence was the only defensible position:

Barak said:

Every attempt {by the State of Israel} to keep hold of this area {the West Bank and Gaza} as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don't vote it is an apartheid state.

He also finally withdrew Israeli troops from Lebanon after over 2 decades.

Barak’s work looked likely to beat fruit. This was intolerable to the Likud hardliners. Sharon deliberately stirred up trouble, kicking off the Second Intifada, and then using that as justification for his hard line against peace. With Sharon’s victory, the process begun at Camp David (and continuing the timeline from the Oslo accords) was cancelled. Instead, Sharon opted to turn Gaza into a ghetto, devoid of independent statehood.

The problem? The Palestinian Authority, however imperfect, remained relatively benign and amenable to a peace process. It just wasn’t a big enough bogeyman to justify reactionary aggression. To fix this, many Israelis in positions of power deliberately set about promoting and supporting Hamas. Once Hamas were in power, they wasted no time in whipping up the international community to brand Hamas as terrorists with whom no negotiations could happen.

Every time there’s a chance of peace, the hardline Zionists work hard to torpedo it.

That doesn’t make Hamas innocent in all of this. But it does cast the allegations of unilateral terrorism in a different light. Those who cannot learn the mistakes of history are destined to repeat them.

Yes, you're correct it is long term. But what else? Sure, you're correct again there's a lot history that will take its toll (for want of a better word) on the outcome of this current situation.
But, the time has come and not before time either for a two state solution. If that's not on cards and the goal by all involved it's shocking reflection on the international community. Time for all of them in particularly the U.S. to man up and act like the great saviour of western society it likes to consider itself.
Of course with current Israeli regime a two state solution is not even on the cards, I think their desire is for the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank is to disappear, into the sea or across to Egypt.
So, we can pontificate all day long, the prize for all with the exception of the Zionists is two states and the Israeli's paying repetitions!
Otherwise, in my humble view there will be no difference between the Palestinians and Hamas, they'll be one. I'm sure the recruitment process for Hamas will be automatic (if it's not so already) as more killings, destruction and starvation is carried out by the Israel's.

Edited by JJJ. on Monday 1st April 18:04

[julian987R]

Senior Iranian Guard Corps official killed in alleged Israeli strike in Damascus

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/building...

[JJJ.]

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

987R will be back with some spurious comments now. Possibly fictional too.
Certainly not balanced in any shape or form, biased would be an understatement for sure. Basically more tripe for this thread.
Love for an oppressor can be unlimited it seems.

I think you are confused - I have no love for Hamas the biggest oppressor whom keep their civilians down and allow next to zero in rights.

I bet you play Ping Pong badly.

With slight of hand I'd have stolen your bat before you even reached the table.

Judging by your posts on here, I doubt very much you have any slight of hand capabilities. Come on, let's face it, it actually takes mental abilities to perform slight of hand!

[skwdenyer]

julian987R said:

Senior Iranian Guard Corps official killed in alleged Israeli strike in Damascus

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/building...

Hard to see how Israel launching air strikes against Iranian targets in Syria is likely to help the cause of peace.

[glazbagun]

Al Jazeera to be banned:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/1/israeli-pm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68708...

Beats being shot, I guess.

[M1AGM]

andymadmak said:

No, that’s not exactly what I meant. I said it was such a shame that Gazans either didn’t feel able (in fear) or didn’t feel inclined ( had some support for Hamas) etc…
Re- reading I can see how that could be misinterpreted, but what I meant by it was that there would be Gazans of both mind sets.
My subsequent comment about protests over the past ten years was again to highlight that in Israel it is possible to protest and object, whereas in Gaza it clearly isn’t. In making that comment I was again obliquely pointing to the positive aspect that once Netanyahu has gone there can again be movement towards peace from the Israeli side, even after the horrors of the 7th

According to what I have been fed on news channels today, the protests are not about wanting peace but wanting the hostages to be saved. Apparently they want bibi to go because he has failed to achieve that goal. The war can crack on.

[skwdenyer]

glazbagun said:

Al Jazeera to be banned:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/1/israeli-pm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68708...

Beats being shot, I guess.

That’s one way of dealing with a free press

[JJJ.]

M1AGM said:

According to what I have been fed on news channels today, the protests are not about wanting peace but wanting the hostages to be saved. Apparently they want bibi to go because he has failed to achieve that goal. The war can crack on.

Yep, that's what was reported on the mainstream TV news.

[JagLover]

skwdenyer said:

Hard to see how Israel launching air strikes against Iranian targets in Syria is likely to help the cause of peace.

I doubt the Iranians being targeted were doing much to advance the cause of peace either.

[isaldiri]

JagLover said:

skwdenyer said:

Hard to see how Israel launching air strikes against Iranian targets in Syria is likely to help the cause of peace.

I doubt the Iranians being targeted were doing much to advance the cause of peace either.

Right - so it's fair game to target anyone 'not doing much to advance the cause of peace'....? Should Iran/Hezbollah start targeting say some of the senior settler groups in government or most right wing likud figures, that's fine too I suppose?

[JagLover]

isaldiri said:

Right - so it's fair game to target anyone 'not doing much to advance the cause of peace'....? Should Iran/Hezbollah start targeting say some of the senior settler groups in government or most right wing likud figures, that's fine too I suppose?

Iran fund, train and equip virtually all of the forces targeting Israel as their proxies. So they are already very much targeting Israel and can expect payback in kind.

This has been going on for years and will no doubt be going on for many years more.

[isaldiri]

JagLover said:

isaldiri said:

Right - so it's fair game to target anyone 'not doing much to advance the cause of peace'....? Should Iran/Hezbollah start targeting say some of the senior settler groups in government or most right wing likud figures, that's fine too I suppose?

Iran fund, train and equip virtually all of the forces targeting Israel as their proxies. So they are already very much targeting Israel and can expect payback in kind.

This has been going on for years and will no doubt be going on for many years more.

Ok so totally do fine for both sides to be targeting high level government figures then and attempting to assassinate them no matter where and causing 'collateral damage' even in a foreign country. Fair enough.

[skwdenyer]

JagLover said:

isaldiri said:

Right - so it's fair game to target anyone 'not doing much to advance the cause of peace'....? Should Iran/Hezbollah start targeting say some of the senior settler groups in government or most right wing likud figures, that's fine too I suppose?

Iran fund, train and equip virtually all of the forces targeting Israel as their proxies. So they are already very much targeting Israel and can expect payback in kind.

This has been going on for years and will no doubt be going on for many years more.

So it is fair game for Israel to, say, launch an air strike on the Iranian Embassy in London if they suspect a relevant General is present?

[AW111]

skwdenyer said:

julian987R said:

Senior Iranian Guard Corps official killed in alleged Israeli strike in Damascus

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/building...

Hard to see how Israel launching air strikes against Iranian targets in Syria is likely to help the cause of peace.

Israel under Netenyahu appears to have no desire for peace.

[AW111]

So the IDF have shot up 3 clearly marked aid vehicles (food delivery), killing aid workers from Autralia, UK, US, and Poland.

The aid workers had informed the Israelis where they were and what they were doing.

Israel, of course, says "it was an accident, but accidents happen in wartime".

Then again, the IDF claims to be the most moral army on the planet

I assume Julian will be here shortly defending Israel on this subject, like every other.

Video of shot-up aid vehicles:
https://bbc.com/news/world-68710515

[skwdenyer]

AW111 said:

skwdenyer said:

julian987R said:

Senior Iranian Guard Corps official killed in alleged Israeli strike in Damascus

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/building...

Hard to see how Israel launching air strikes against Iranian targets in Syria is likely to help the cause of peace.

Israel under Netenyahu appears to have no desire for peace.

As I (and, more importantly, others with actual bona fides in this area) have written, Netanyahu's entire political career has been based upon the existence of conflict. Whether because he sees himself as the saviour of Israel against the marauding hordes, or because he knows that moderate voices would destroy him except in time of conflict, I do not know. But his litany of actions to undermine any prospect of peace stretch back decades.

Bleeding mainstream support, he certainly hasn't been shy about embracing the most extremist and fringe elements in Israel's political landscape to bolster his cause, as detailed well here: https://archive.is/E8Rd1

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to suggest he was complicit in Rabin's assassination, or that Ariel Sharon's triggering of the Second Intifada was done in coordination with Netanyahu. What is clear is that, without Barak's cunning (or desperate) resignation tactic, Netanyahu would have been PM a second time even earlier.

For reasons that are entirely understandable, Israelis want security. Sadly, like Trump-era America or perhaps Putin-era Russia, they have come to believe that the easy solutions promised by "tough guys" like Netanyahu are the answer (despite ample evidence, domestic and foreign, to contradict the assertion). Every time Netanyahu's star has begun to wane, almost like clockwork there has been some sort of Palestinian issue to use as the basis for saying "see, you need me to feel safe!" Conspiracy theorists would have a field day.

[Hereward]

Forward Air Controller: "Do not target the white pickup currently heading South at co-ordinates XYZ"

Pilot: "Roger that. Targeting the white pickup heading South at XYZ. Acquiring now. Out"

[AW111]

Hereward said:

Forward Air Controller: "Do not target the white pickup currently heading South at co-ordinates XYZ"

Pilot: "Roger that. Targeting the white pickup heading South at XYZ. Acquiring now. Out"

The Israeli government have been demonising aid workers for some time now.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a deliberate act, but not officially ordered or sanctioned by the top brass.

Three seperate marked vehicles shot up at 3 seperate locations does not sound remotely like an accident to me.

[Dingu]

AW111 said:

So the IDF have shot up 3 clearly marked aid vehicles (food delivery), killing aid workers from Autralia, UK, US, and Poland.

The aid workers had informed the Israelis where they were and what they were doing.

Israel, of course, says "it was an accident, but accidents happen in wartime".

Then again, the IDF claims to be the most moral army on the planet

I assume Julian will be here shortly defending Israel on this subject, like every other.

Video of shot-up aid vehicles:
https://bbc.com/news/world-68710515

Once again proving they are a state backed terrorist organisation as much as any Iranian backed force.