The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
Mannginger said:
Jeez so you're not much for having a different view then?
I read that as yes it's flawed but with good questions to be asked around are the dangers of breaking the British Union up and potentially make the Balkan states more likely to fragment or become influenced by Russia worth the bureaucratic flaws of the EU, especially when the economic case for leaving the EU is far from being made.
They're interesting questions IMO
They're fair points, but neither of them should be given a higher level of importance than all of the negatives that Hague has listed himself. I read that as yes it's flawed but with good questions to be asked around are the dangers of breaking the British Union up and potentially make the Balkan states more likely to fragment or become influenced by Russia worth the bureaucratic flaws of the EU, especially when the economic case for leaving the EU is far from being made.
They're interesting questions IMO
It's not really our place to police the Balkans in any sort of pre-emptive way and there's certainly no Government mandate to put hypothetical Balkan instability above the interests of UK citizens. Though the killer-blow here is that the UK leaving would have no impact on the EU's approach to the Balkans. The EU isn't going to end it's imperialist expansionism if we part company.
The break up of the UK is possibly more serious, but at the end of the day if Scotland wants to be independent by being dependent on the EU, then that's up to them. Mind you, you'd think that if it's so important to the UK, the Government wouldn't get involved in the question for a second time.
I'm actually quite disappointed in Hague, he's always come across as a decent politician with his head screwed on right, he's laid out a cogent assessment of the state of play and then drawn somebody else's conclusion from his arguments.
The take-home message is surely that the only positives from remaining within the EU are a couple of hypothetical fripperies, one of which isn't predicated on a vote to stay in the EU.
FiF said:
Scuffers said:
simply don't agree...
if we want to sell into a market that has specific regs, fine, we comply with them, as we do for US regs when we sell to them, it does not mean we have to rigidly adopt the same regs for *all* our stuff.
consider in this that the EU market is actually shrinking too.
Last point, having a CE sticker on something is great, works really well when you think that 99.9% of the stuff from China has the CE sticker on it, apparently they are really cheap to print! (look at the current farce on hover boards).
Sometimes Scuffers you seem a bit odd. If we want to sell into a market then we have to comply with the regs of that market, we seem to agree on that. if we want to sell into a market that has specific regs, fine, we comply with them, as we do for US regs when we sell to them, it does not mean we have to rigidly adopt the same regs for *all* our stuff.
consider in this that the EU market is actually shrinking too.
Last point, having a CE sticker on something is great, works really well when you think that 99.9% of the stuff from China has the CE sticker on it, apparently they are really cheap to print! (look at the current farce on hover boards).
Nowhere did I say that everything then has to comply, it might make sense for some products to do so, in others not, but manufacturers would have the choice. Also those EU or US regs might just make sense, but we could decide about that.
Last point, are you really claiming that it's a good idea to just print approval marks on stuff even though it's not in compliance? Surely not, though agree Chinese seem to get away with it, but the world needs to get to grips with a nation that has such contempt for intellectual and other property rights.
My point while specifically using kitemark was really more widely aimed at wanting this nation to stand up for something. With CMD at the help, some hope, he doesn't stand up for anything much.
You sound like the politicians in this video, asking questions with an expert but not actually listening to the answers given, baffles me why?
https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
paulrockliffe said:
The take-home message is surely that the only positives from remaining within the EU are a couple of hypothetical fripperies, one of which isn't predicated on a vote to stay in the EU.
Possibly. I need to spend more time sourcing / seeing info on the potential economical impact of leaving. Much of which we may not see until after Cameron's current efforts. If he fails to get enough concessions then there'd need to be a pretty decent effort to start thinking about life post an exit and what trade terms etc would look like IMO.Cards on the table I am far from a fan of the EU although acknowledge I personally have benefited from the freedom for EU citizens to move and work in different countries easily. There are some good things in EU and it really shouldn't be left lightly, if only it didn't come with so much crap and imposed legislation
Mannginger said:
Possibly. I need to spend more time sourcing / seeing info on the potential economical impact of leaving. Much of which we may not see until after Cameron's current efforts. If he fails to get enough concessions then there'd need to be a pretty decent effort to start thinking about life post an exit and what trade terms etc would look like IMO.
all well and good, but as CMD is not asking for anything significant, what exactly are you pinning your hopes on?RE: freedom of movement - so what if we need to present a passport? what's the big deal (you pretty much have to now anyway).
Realistically, the only people this may cause an issue with is the lorry drivers who cross borders every day, and even then, assuming bureaucrat does not go mad, should be straight forward enough.
Scuffers said:
all well and good, but as CMD is not asking for anything significant, what exactly are you pinning your hopes on?
RE: freedom of movement - so what if we need to present a passport? what's the big deal (you pretty much have to now anyway).
Realistically, the only people this may cause an issue with is the lorry drivers who cross borders every day, and even then, assuming bureaucrat does not go mad, should be straight forward enough.
So his main areas are as follows I think:RE: freedom of movement - so what if we need to present a passport? what's the big deal (you pretty much have to now anyway).
Realistically, the only people this may cause an issue with is the lorry drivers who cross borders every day, and even then, assuming bureaucrat does not go mad, should be straight forward enough.
1. Reducing red-tape and being bolder with trade deals
2. Ensure UK tax payers wouldn't need to bail out EU countries and no compulsion to accept Eurozone legislation (EG: banking legislation)
3. End to ever closer union and re-establish national parliament primacy
4. Mechanisms to reduce attractiveness of UK to EU migration (Including time before being able to draw benefits)
1-3 are more important to me than 4 especially establishing national Parliament and legal primacy I hate that a European court can over-rule national legislation. That said I am also strongly of the view that it is too easy for people to access benefits with minimal contribution and personally I'd be looking at a minimum of 5 years' contribution of Tax and NI.
I don't think the above is a bad list although clearly the devil is in the detail of what he actually gets to achieve and if it's not good enough or clear-cut enough then I'll probably be swayed to an exit vote. I do want to see more info on what that could mean economically though. In the long term of course it'd be fine but how much will it hit in the short term?
My partner's Spanish by the way, we met at University as she was over to teach, She was earning from day one and hasn't stopped earning ever since. It was partnerships with EU universities and an EU programme that made that possible.
In my opinion it's not just about needing a passport but about being able to easily and legally work in the UK. Getting talent into the UK from outside of the EU can be a very hard thing indeed and I'm not sure we are in a position that we can reliably get all the talent we need from the UK alone so maybe what's needed is something like EU citizens get a 5 year right to work Visa which can then become permanent right to stay / draw out of work benefits if a certain amount of time / earnings / contribution has been achieved.
As with most things it's not black and white and the shades of grey are important to unpick and find solutions for or at least acknowledge and prepare for the consequences of decisions
Mannginger said:
So his main areas are as follows I think:
1. Reducing red-tape and being bolder with trade deals
2. Ensure UK tax payers wouldn't need to bail out EU countries and no compulsion to accept Eurozone legislation (EG: banking legislation)
3. End to ever closer union and re-establish national parliament primacy
4. Mechanisms to reduce attractiveness of UK to EU migration (Including time before being able to draw benefits)
1-3 are vague ideals, they actually mean nothing.1. Reducing red-tape and being bolder with trade deals
2. Ensure UK tax payers wouldn't need to bail out EU countries and no compulsion to accept Eurozone legislation (EG: banking legislation)
3. End to ever closer union and re-establish national parliament primacy
4. Mechanisms to reduce attractiveness of UK to EU migration (Including time before being able to draw benefits)
Think about it, what can CMD present to you that is actually going to achieve any of these vague ideals?
Reduce red tape? really? this is the EU we are talking about.
Bailing out other EU countries - we already are, even though we are not part of the Euro zone, it's via the world bank, so unless your proposing we withdraw from that too?
Parlimetary Primacy - impossible without rescinding current treaties, and that's simply not going to happen.
Mannginger said:
1-3 are more important to me than 4 especially establishing national Parliament and legal primacy I hate that a European court can over-rule national legislation. That said I am also strongly of the view that it is too easy for people to access benefits with minimal contribution and personally I'd be looking at a minimum of 5 years' contribution of Tax and NI.
I don't think the above is a bad list although clearly the devil is in the detail of what he actually gets to achieve and if it's not good enough or clear-cut enough then I'll probably be swayed to an exit vote. I do want to see more info on what that could mean economically though. In the long term of course it'd be fine but how much will it hit in the short term?
My partner's Spanish by the way, we met at University as she was over to teach, She was earning from day one and hasn't stopped earning ever since. It was partnerships with EU universities and an EU programme that made that possible.
In my opinion it's not just about needing a passport but about being able to easily and legally work in the UK. Getting talent into the UK from outside of the EU can be a very hard thing indeed and I'm not sure we are in a position that we can reliably get all the talent we need from the UK alone so maybe what's needed is something like EU citizens get a 5 year right to work Visa which can then become permanent right to stay / draw out of work benefits if a certain amount of time / earnings / contribution has been achieved.
As with most things it's not black and white and the shades of grey are important to unpick and find solutions for or at least acknowledge and prepare for the consequences of decisions
it's really not that hard to get skilled workers into the UK, have done in the past, it;s a relatively simple paperwork exercise, assuming their skills are valid.I don't think the above is a bad list although clearly the devil is in the detail of what he actually gets to achieve and if it's not good enough or clear-cut enough then I'll probably be swayed to an exit vote. I do want to see more info on what that could mean economically though. In the long term of course it'd be fine but how much will it hit in the short term?
My partner's Spanish by the way, we met at University as she was over to teach, She was earning from day one and hasn't stopped earning ever since. It was partnerships with EU universities and an EU programme that made that possible.
In my opinion it's not just about needing a passport but about being able to easily and legally work in the UK. Getting talent into the UK from outside of the EU can be a very hard thing indeed and I'm not sure we are in a position that we can reliably get all the talent we need from the UK alone so maybe what's needed is something like EU citizens get a 5 year right to work Visa which can then become permanent right to stay / draw out of work benefits if a certain amount of time / earnings / contribution has been achieved.
As with most things it's not black and white and the shades of grey are important to unpick and find solutions for or at least acknowledge and prepare for the consequences of decisions
as for talent we need, so we really need 600,000+ un-skilled EU nationals coming here every year?
what's more scary is the 300,000+ Brits leaving, you can be dam sure a lot of them are the very talent we need to retain in the UK, but are leaving the sinking ship.
KrissKross said:
Fif, Scuffers is correct, so why do you feel he is odd?
You sound like the politicians in this video, asking questions with an expert but not actually listening to the answers given, baffles me why?
https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
You're another one who doesn't understand what has been written, Davepoth got it in one. You sound like the politicians in this video, asking questions with an expert but not actually listening to the answers given, baffles me why?
https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
FiF said:
KrissKross said:
Fif, Scuffers is correct, so why do you feel he is odd?
You sound like the politicians in this video, asking questions with an expert but not actually listening to the answers given, baffles me why?
https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
You're another one who doesn't understand what has been written, Davenport got it in one. You sound like the politicians in this video, asking questions with an expert but not actually listening to the answers given, baffles me why?
https://youtu.be/leKEUT1TiLU
The EU does not help trade, politicians do not help trade. 95% of the population don't know anything about "trade", yet everyone seems to be an expert these days!
As much as I'd like to stick two fingers up to the shambles in Brussels there is absolutely no hope of the UK electorate voting to come out of the EU I'm afraid. It just ain't gonna happen.
Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Harry H said:
As much as I'd like to stick two fingers up to the shambles in Brussels there is absolutely no hope of the UK electorate voting to come out of the EU I'm afraid. It just ain't gonna happen.
Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
You are probably right. Its a real shame but if we do remain I for one will be looking to re-locate.Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Scuffers said:
...that's simply not going to happen
I am at least prepared to see what can be offered and sorted as part of this deal. My mind is not made up yet. I'm not sure why you seem to feel it should be when we don't have enough answers yet. If those answers aren't good enough then I suspect I may well vote to leave, assuming it doesn't leave a massive black hole in the short-term.Scotland going Independent? Well I'm on the fence on that so if we do elect to leave and they choose to go then so be it.
KrissKross said:
What do I not understand, if you want to talk specifically about "trade" then lets do so. I have some a some direct experience in this area.
The EU does not help trade, politicians do not help trade. 95% of the population don't know anything about "trade", yet everyone seems to be an expert these days!
Where have I introduced the notion that only wish to discuss trade?The EU does not help trade, politicians do not help trade. 95% of the population don't know anything about "trade", yet everyone seems to be an expert these days!
Harry H said:
As much as I'd like to stick two fingers up to the shambles in Brussels there is absolutely no hope of the UK electorate voting to come out of the EU I'm afraid. It just ain't gonna happen.
Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Fyi CMD has already signed off on the campaign spending limits during the crucial final weeks. The Remain campaign is apparently going to be allowed to spend 50% more than the leave campaign. Source is unfortunately the Fail, so there must be some devil in the details there. The sad thing is that if it's even half true is there anyone surprised by this possibility. Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Harry H said:
As much as I'd like to stick two fingers up to the shambles in Brussels there is absolutely no hope of the UK electorate voting to come out of the EU I'm afraid. It just ain't gonna happen.
Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
I think you're right but it won't stop me from voting to leave. Once the date is set enough money as is necessary will be pumped into the media campaign to get the right answer of us all staying in. Media organisations especially the BBC will be bribed/ cajoled into to putting the right amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as to what a Brexit will actually mean. Anyone that speaks for out will be labeled as "racist/ little Englanders and we'll mainly vote how the politicians want us too.
It's a shame but that's how it's gonna be. Once we're committed then the total union march will be unstoppable.
Anything else happening is just wishful thinking. It'll be a similar result to UKIP and the last GE all over again.
Even if exit caused us short term harm, which I don't think it will to any extent, I would still vote to leave what is clearly an incompetent corrupt institution, and anyone with a conscience would IMO.
It's nothing to to with racism, small mindedness or anything else of that ilk. It's to do with not wanting to be part of something so wrong.
I also believe that if we were to come even close to leaving it might encourage the exit campaigns in France and Italy too. We hear little of them ( I wonder why?) but they do exist.
The EU makes FIFA look upright and honest, how dare we risk allowing it to continue unchecked?
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