another abuse gang

[Digga]

TTwiggy said:

All I asked for was evidence that multi-culturalism is the driving factor for rape in Sweden. If people are going to assert that, they should be able to back it up without recourse to obfuscation.

I don't think there is concrete evidence. However, if you look at the overall picture, what has happened here is pretty much mirrored there. Okay, they have a different method of recording crimes, but the bigger picture - a migrant community that clearly has a.) not integrated with and b.) appears to be at loggerheads with the rest of the country is there for anyone to see.

[gpo746]

This is the thread that pretty much tells it like it really is.
Its not been polluted by all those trendys and lovey doveys, the types who have fooked this country

[TTwiggy]

gpo746 said:

This is the thread that pretty much tells it like it really is.

And how is it then? Because I've read the whole thread and I must be missing the message you're trying to get across.

[don4l]

TTwiggy said:

The only people shouting 'racism' are those on your side of the debate. I haven't called anybody a racist, nor even alluded to it.

All I asked for was evidence that multi-culturalism is the driving factor for rape in Sweden. If people are going to assert that, they should be able to back it up without recourse to obfuscation.

Why not do some of your own research? You could then present some evidence to back up your own position.

Here is some evidence (my bold):-

Wikipedia said:

Immigrants are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics. In a study by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention in 1997-2001, 25% of the almost 1,520,000 offences were found to be committed by people born abroad, while almost 20% were committed by Swedish-born people with a foreign background. In the study, immigrants were found to be four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes. Those from North Africa and Western Asia were overrepresented.

The report is based on statistics for those "suspected" of offences, but Stina Holmberg of the Council for Crime Prevention said that there was "little difference" in the statistics for those suspected of crimes and those actually convicted.

"Slightly under 60 percent of the almost 1,520,000 offences ... registered during the period covered by the study can be attributed to persons who were born in Sweden to two Swedish-born parents," it said.[30]

[gpo746]

TTwiggy said:

gpo746 said:

This is the thread that pretty much tells it like it really is.

And how is it then? Because I've read the whole thread and I must be missing the message you're trying to get across.

Obviously you haven't read it or have chosen to ignore the rather clear message that is being put across.
Try again and don't be so polite next time your usually one of the sneering types as I recall from other threads.

[TTwiggy]

gpo746 said:

TTwiggy said:

gpo746 said:

This is the thread that pretty much tells it like it really is.

And how is it then? Because I've read the whole thread and I must be missing the message you're trying to get across.

Obviously you haven't read it or have chosen to ignore the rather clear message that is being put across.
Try again and don't be so polite next time your usually one of the sneering types as I recall from other threads.

I never sneer, it's bad for the complexion. If the message is so clear, why don't you spell it out for me?

[gpo746]

TTwiggy said:

I never sneer, it's bad for the complexion. If the message is so clear, why don't you spell it out for me?

1. Yea you do just checked in case I was mistaken but I wasn't you are one that does
2. That certain groups of men who follow a particular religion like to abuse white girls

Feel free to come back with a reply I wont be bothering with you again so you can think of it as having the last word

[TTwiggy]

gpo746 said:

TTwiggy said:

I never sneer, it's bad for the complexion. If the message is so clear, why don't you spell it out for me?

1. Yea you do just checked in case I was mistaken but I wasn't you are one that does
2. That certain groups of men who follow a particular religion like to abuse white girls

Feel free to come back with a reply I wont be bothering with you again so you can think of it as having the last word

What's your agenda gpo? If I'm a sneerer, what are you?

[carinaman]

It would be a shame if the thread was closed because it became about trading personal insults. It's not an SP&L thread.

[heppers75]

TTwiggy said:

heppers75 said:

Spot on.

The challenge we have is that nobody that is seemingly a member or at least a defender of the same demographic as the majority of the perpetrators seems to believe, wish ,want or think that there is any possible link, cause, reason or possible correlation to the fact that these men were a part of the same demographic, type of community or followers of a certain faith and to say, to even intimate as such instantly labels you a racist with whom any debate is not possible.

Which is so mind bogglingly irrational and in the face of the evidence plain dumb, it beggars belief!

It does not matter how clear and concise you are in your assertion either. That being it is clearly not the only factor, it is clearly, even if it is a part of it a perversion, failure of understanding and an utter antithesis to the way in which a vast majority of that demographic think, follow their beliefs and partake in society.

It does not matter if you wholeheartedly agree that all of the failings from all quarters need to be also brought into focus, the police, authorities, councils etc etc etc all that is perfectly ok but don't you dare even try to say there could have been failings and influences from within their community, teachings, understanding and beliefs system that played a part - thats just racist!

Edited by heppers75 on Tuesday 9th September 13:33

The only people shouting 'racism' are those on your side of the debate. I haven't called anybody a racist, nor even alluded to it.

All I asked for was evidence that multi-culturalism is the driving factor for rape in Sweden. If people are going to assert that, they should be able to back it up without recourse to obfuscation.

Ok, you personally perhaps not, apologies if i tarred you with the same brush as others, it was not my intention. However I notice that no matter what reply or retort you give you never do seem to quite answer the questions being asked. So I will do so directly: -

Do you agree with the fact that there is likely some part to play for the perpetrators of these acts which is down to the values, beliefs, influences and or teachings they have received and that they likely play a part in the reason for the commission of these offences?

Or do you believe that the fact this particular demographic is so overly represented in these matters is just a coincidence?

Edited by heppers75 on Tuesday 9th September 15:36

[TTwiggy]

heppers75 said:

Ok, you personally perhaps not, apologies if i tarred you with the same brush as others, it was not my intention. However I notice that no matter what reply or retort you give you never do seem to quite answer the questions being asked. So I will do so directly: -

Do you agree with the fact that there is likely some part to play for the perpetrators of these acts which is down to the values, beliefs, influences and or teachings they have received and that they likely play a part in the reason for the commission of these offences?

Or do you believe that the fact this particular demographic is so overly represented in these matters is just a coincidence?

Edited by heppers75 on Tuesday 9th September 15:36

I agree that taken in isolation, it would seem logical that some aspect of the culture or religion is playing a part in these abuse cases (I am sticking to Rotherham here, as it's the gist of the thread and I don't feel confident to comment on the situation in a foreign country like Sweden).

However, it's only fair to point out that other factors could also be in play. I made the assertion earlier in this thread that there might be something in the way that young men in this country perceive women that could lead them to become abusers. There are other factors that link these men together too, including, but no limited to, poverty, lack of education and opportunities, and a peer group lacking in diversity. I think many things are at play. All of which have to be looked at if one is seeking to understand this situation.

[heppers75]

TTwiggy said:

heppers75 said:

Ok, you personally perhaps not, apologies if i tarred you with the same brush as others, it was not my intention. However I notice that no matter what reply or retort you give you never do seem to quite answer the questions being asked. So I will do so directly: -

Do you agree with the fact that there is likely some part to play for the perpetrators of these acts which is down to the values, beliefs, influences and or teachings they have received and that they likely play a part in the reason for the commission of these offences?

Or do you believe that the fact this particular demographic is so overly represented in these matters is just a coincidence?

Edited by heppers75 on Tuesday 9th September 15:36

I agree that taken in isolation, it would seem logical that some aspect of the culture or religion is playing a part in these abuse cases (I am sticking to Rotherham here, as it's the gist of the thread and I don't feel confident to comment on the situation in a foreign country like Sweden).

However, it's only fair to point out that other factors could also be in play. I made the assertion earlier in this thread that there might be something in the way that young men in this country perceive women that could lead them to become abusers. There are other factors that link these men together too, including, but no limited to, poverty, lack of education and opportunities, and a peer group lacking in diversity. I think many things are at play. All of which have to be looked at if one is seeking to understand this situation.

Then oddly enough I think we are in agreement as I have mentioned more than once exactly the same thing, in that if you were to list out some of the common traits in these men you would get a list something akin to: -

Male
18-60 years old
Poorly educated
Insular lifestyle
Pakistani Muslim
Socio Economically disadvantaged
Poor societal influences
Drink and Drug culture exposure
Professions which provide exposure to potential victims

I am not entirely sure where the assertion comes from on it being a perception of women by young men in this country as a more holistic statement. As if that were the case then you would surely see a more representative proportion of young men from other demographics as opposed to the more focused ones we are seeing no?

Also I think we have somewhat gone past this being just about Rotherham. There have been various news stories linked in this thread alone to at least half a dozen or so other instances of exactly the same crimes, arrests and subsequent prosecutions in many other locations around the country over different time periods where the perpetrators share that same list of common traits.

But you are spot on, ALL aspects need to be investigated and that includes the one which causes all manner of discomfort to many for all manner of reasons. It is nice to see you actually acknowledge the fact, it is shame more people do not.

Edited by heppers75 on Tuesday 9th September 15:55

[Mermaid]

Countdown said:

If that's the case would you not expect to see similar behaviour in other countries which have muslim populations?

Do you feel Pakistanis let the Muslim side down?

[TTwiggy]

heppers75 said:

Then oddly enough I think we are in agreement as I have mentioned more than once exactly the same thing, in that if you were to list out some of the common traits in these men you would get a list something akin to: -

Male
18-60 years old
Poorly educated
Insular lifestyle
Pakistani Muslim
Socio Economically disadvantaged
Poor societal influences
Drink and Drug culture exposure
Professions which provide exposure to potential victims

I am not entirely sure where the assertion comes from on it being a perception of women by young men in this country as a more holistic statement. As if that were the case then you would surely see a more representative proportion of young men from other demographics as opposed to the more focused ones we are seeing no?

Also I think we have somewhat gone past this being just about Rotherham. There have been various news stories linked in this thread alone to at least half a dozen or so other instances of exactly the same crimes, arrests and subsequent prosecutions in many other locations around the country over different time periods where the perpetrators share that same list of common traits.

Couple of points to pick up on:

I do think it's worth considering the views that young men have about women when looking at these crimes. I think that young men have a very distorted view of women and how they should be treated in a sexual context these days. I think that 'women's rights' have, in many ways, taken a big step backwards recently. It's a huge subject which would have to include areas like the media, broken families and a lack of 'decent' male role models. It's probably too big to go into here in a satisfactory way.

To address your list of traits, I'd say it probably covers the prime common factors. I guess that the reason I find myself on the 'other side' of the debate on this thread is that I feel that some posters are putting rather a lot of bias on just one or two things that you list - I'm sure you know which ones I mean – and I rather feel that it's an agenda-driven intention.

[25NAD90TUL]

Countdown said:

If that's the case would you not expect to see similar behaviour in other countries which have muslim populations?

Do we not see this already? Britain, Sweden?

If you are alluding to primarily Moslem countries then cases there don't make the news in the same way.

Mermaid said:

Do you feel Pakistanis let the Muslim side down?

Myself no, not especially, I stated much earlier that these men are usually employed in industries where opportunity for this type of behaviour presents itself to a greater degree.

Islam generally views females as a sub-class, this isn't exclusively a Pakistani trait.

[Mermaid]

25NAD90TUL said:

Myself no, not especially, I stated much earlier that these men are usually employed in industries where opportunity for this type of behaviour presents itself to a greater degree.

Islam generally views females as a sub-class, this isn't exclusively a Pakistani trait.

Majority if the people employed in that industry are not Pakistani Muslims, and yet.. glad we can agree Islam's view of women is outdated.

Islam needs fast forwarding a hundred years or so. Education and more education or severe punishment to get the message through.

[heppers75]

TTwiggy said:

heppers75 said:

Then oddly enough I think we are in agreement as I have mentioned more than once exactly the same thing, in that if you were to list out some of the common traits in these men you would get a list something akin to: -

Male
18-60 years old
Poorly educated
Insular lifestyle
Pakistani Muslim
Socio Economically disadvantaged
Poor societal influences
Drink and Drug culture exposure
Professions which provide exposure to potential victims

I am not entirely sure where the assertion comes from on it being a perception of women by young men in this country as a more holistic statement. As if that were the case then you would surely see a more representative proportion of young men from other demographics as opposed to the more focused ones we are seeing no?

Also I think we have somewhat gone past this being just about Rotherham. There have been various news stories linked in this thread alone to at least half a dozen or so other instances of exactly the same crimes, arrests and subsequent prosecutions in many other locations around the country over different time periods where the perpetrators share that same list of common traits.

Couple of points to pick up on:

I do think it's worth considering the views that young men have about women when looking at these crimes. I think that young men have a very distorted view of women and how they should be treated in a sexual context these days. I think that 'women's rights' have, in many ways, taken a big step backwards recently. It's a huge subject which would have to include areas like the media, broken families and a lack of 'decent' male role models. It's probably too big to go into here in a satisfactory way.

To address your list of traits, I'd say it probably covers the prime common factors. I guess that the reason I find myself on the 'other side' of the debate on this thread is that I feel that some posters are putting rather a lot of bias on just one or two things that you list - I'm sure you know which ones I mean – and I rather feel that it's an agenda-driven intention.

I think there are a fair number of people that do have an agenda driven axe to grind FWIW I don't, I am a pretty facts oriented person that gets very wound up by people that ignore them!

I also do not disagree to some degree with you, there is an appalling lack of respect to personal and social responsibility and not just to women from large swathes of the younger population of the UK full stop (old bloke mode off!). That is a whole societal mess we have created by being on generation 3 and 4 of a growing underclass that neither works nor ever has any intention of doing so. That though is a different debate for a different place, but certainly a part of this issue as well. However without wanting to possibly sound like I am grinding said axe above - if you remove those one or two traits from that list above you have just captured within that broader definition hundreds of thousands of men on sink estates, poorer communities and the generally crappier areas of the UK. So you surely have to ask yourself if all of those other traits have equal bearing then why do we not see either other gangs composed of other groups of men in a similar way?

Is it they do not exist? Is it they do not get caught? Or is it something else as quite simply we are not seeing it.

I do not know what the answer to that is, I just know that if you follow the logic it is a question that needs addressing.

[TTwiggy]

heppers75 said:

I think there are a fair number of people that do have an agenda driven axe to grind FWIW I don't, I am a pretty facts oriented person that gets very wound up by people that ignore them!

I also do not disagree to some degree with you, there is an appalling lack of respect to personal and social responsibility and not just to women from large swathes of the younger population of the UK full stop (old bloke mode off!). That is a whole societal mess we have created by being on generation 3 and 4 of a growing underclass that neither works nor ever has any intention of doing so. That though is a different debate for a different place, but certainly a part of this issue as well. However without wanting to possibly sound like I am grinding said axe above - if you remove those one or two traits from that list above you have just captured within that broader definition hundreds of thousands of men on sink estates, poorer communities and the generally crappier areas of the UK. So you surely have to ask yourself if all of those other traits have equal bearing then why do we not see either other gangs composed of other groups of men in a similar way?

Is it they do not exist? Is it they do not get caught? Or is it something else as quite simply we are not seeing it.

I do not know what the answer to that is, I just know that if you follow the logic it is a question that needs addressing.

To give one example - black gang members pass around girls like a commodity and control them by rape and other sexual violence. Those gang members would tick almost every box on your list apart from Muslim and Pakistani.

[Digga]

Setting aside the demographic of the offenders, and the fact they should be pursued and punished, to the full extent of the law. Even setting aside those in positions of responsibility - police, government and social services - who have allowed these abuses to happen, have facilitated them, and have failed miserably to investigate reports of said abuse when they were made, who also should be punished by law and/or disciplinary hearing, again to the fullest extent, there is another issue.

I feel there has been something, and I say thing because it must be a body of people, an organisation, to have had the breadth and depth of influence, possibly even several organisations, which has driven ideology through the broader public sector, sweeping common sense and free thought and speech with it. I think that is where we should now focus; given that we now know (roughly) who the primary and secondary culprits were - who are these tertiary culprits?

[gpo746]

TTwiggy said:

gpo746 said:

TTwiggy said:

I never sneer, it's bad for the complexion. If the message is so clear, why don't you spell it out for me?

1. Yea you do just checked in case I was mistaken but I wasn't you are one that does
2. That certain groups of men who follow a particular religion like to abuse white girls

Feel free to come back with a reply I wont be bothering with you again so you can think of it as having the last word

What's your agenda gpo? If I'm a sneerer, what are you?

I don't have an agenda actually What I am is a basically reasonable bloke who has become fed up of being told to embrace this or that and am fed up of the attitudes of people in positions in power of pushing through political correctness that has badly damaged our country. Hope that clears that up for you. If you prefer to think of me as a white hooded flaming cross baring BNP tattod on forefead follower blow your socks off it doesn't matter to me.
I have encountered you before in other threads and have thought (as have others) that you adopt a sneering and patronising manner to people whose views you disagree with the islam and the west thread being one of them.
Your views are just that they are not superior to anyone else's though I am sure that you know that already
Now as I have explained why I think that and have also explained what the message is on this thread I think my replying any further to you is irrelevant.