Why is Cannabis still illegal?

[Macski]

gregs656 said:

Macski said:

Why are you having surgery right now?

I know it could be happening but would you be comfortable knowing that your about to go into surgery with a team that has been using cannabis.

The answer is clearly no, but it has no bearing what so ever on the legalisation argument for the obvious reasons already pointed out to you.

It’s such an obvious point that if you can’t work it out I am not surprised you are unable to think through the nuances of the arguments on both sides.

Indeed I would not be happy with someone who makes the kind of argument you are making here being on my surgery team.

It has a bearing because it effects other people also, same as alcohol does.

I had a cousin who was a regular user of cannabis and during the period he was on cannabis his behavior was strange, his behavior effected everyone

I also had a parent who was an alcoholic. These things just don't effect the individual.

[andy_s]

Macski said:

You must have had a very sheltered life as a copper.

I have seen people get confused and panick while high on cannabis,

Watch the various crime channels cannabis is very often a significant cause in murders

I was in for 7 years and had the same experience as Derek.

Yes, that's right, the causal link between murder and cannabis consumption is well known and as you say, very significant; one of the main reasons for keeping it illegal is to prevent acts of violence, as keeping it illegal means people don't smoke it.
They will smoke it if you make it legal though, all of a sudden, [as it's so hard to get when it's illegal], and the government's endorsement would only further encourage hitherto law-abiding citizens [they wouldn't restrict sales or prohibit strength or put warnings on packaging or apply any other mitigation when rolling this out of course] - undoubtedly leading to more murders.

Good points, but I may suggest you are smoking with the wrong people if they are getting panicky - I've never noticed this during 30 years 'on the bench', as it were.

[B210bandit]

Macski said:

It has a bearing because it effects other people also, same as alcohol does.

I had a cousin who was a regular user of cannabis and during the period he was on cannabis his behavior was strange, his behavior effected everyone

I also had a parent who was an alcoholic. These things just don't effect the individual.

You family has a history of mental ill-health, and your cousin suffers from it. He is probably self-medicating. I see this frequently: those who want cannabis, or alcohol, or other drugs banned have mostly had relatives with mental ill health who have used the substances. Mental ill health is strongly genetic, so best you take care, too.

[Derek Smith]

Macski said:

You must have had a very sheltered life as a copper.

I have seen people get confused and panick while high on cannabis,

Watch the various crime channels cannabis is very often a significant cause in murders

I would guess that you are not a copper and you have never been one. Yet you are happy to make assumptions about me based on little evidence. I wonder if that's how you've come to conclusions about cannabis.

I was gaoler for a while. Too long, but then they all say that. I've known cannabis users to be agitated when coming out of its affects, but then drunks have the same but worse. I was on a drug where I had to be eased off it over a month. I would assume it happens with most drugs that affect the mind.

As an aside, I was one for the quiet life in the cell block and there was always a ready supply of cigarettes to calm those who've come in without any and are kept in for more than a couple of hours. They would end up climbing the wall and upsetting my other guests if I didn't give them access to their monkey.

But, as ever, you miss the point. Legislation of drugs should be a balance. There are positives and negatives to legalising cannabis. I believe the government has got it wrong, and in a big way. If you believe what the editors of the reactionary red tops suggest, the world will come to an end if cannabis was legalised, despite the fact there's very little policing of it at the moment. On the other hand, you could have an Excel diagram of plus and minus and come to your own conclusion.

Most research in the US shows little or no link between cannabis and violence. One report shows a reverse effect. There was a paper from some years ago that showed a link, but whether it showed causality is open to question. There's lots of evidence that correlates alcohol with violence. Overwhelming just doesn't do it justice.

Even if there was a link between cannabis and violence, there's considerable violence generated from it being made illegal.

Even if the link is shown, it also shows that cannabis is out there now. There's no lid on it.

[bodhi]

Macski said:

It is often pointed out that it is unheard off for people to smoke 20 joints of cannabis a day, the more accaptable it becomes I suggest this will change.

I believe cannabis gets absorbed by the body more then tobacco.

I suggest that if this is your view you really don't have a fking clue what you are talking about. No one is going to suddenly start smoking 20 "joints of cannabis" a day like they were cigarettes, unless someone is in the lucky enough position to afford £60 a day in weed, but also doesn't have a job or any other responsibilities to look after whilst they were out of their trees. Trust me, I know from experience that level of consumption just isn't actually possible, or desireable by your average recreational smoker.

Legalisation wouldn't change consumption rates in the slightest for those who already smoke, just how they obtain it. Knowing this country it would probably actually get harder to obtain than it is now

[Davos123]

bodhi said:

Knowing this country it would probably actually get harder to obtain than it is now

Exactly what has happened in Canada.

[B210bandit]

With a heavy drinker as PM not much chance of legalisation any time soon.

[gregs656]

Macski said:

It has a bearing because it effects other people also, same as alcohol does.

No it doesn’t have a bearing, at all, because what I think it is ok for my Dr to do before surgery is not explicitly linked to whether that activity is legal.

There are lots of illegal things I wouldn’t care if my Dr had done before surgery and lots of legal things that I would care about a lot.

I am amazed you’re not getting this.

[technodup]

gregs656 said:

I am amazed you’re not getting this.

It's the same as the last guy the last time this thread got bumped. He had a son or relative who had issues 'caused by cannabis' and that was enough to form his opinion and nothing was going to change it.

I sort of understand, but these people should and ultimately will be ignored.

[Derek Smith]

There's the Nutt Report, 2010, on drugs, both legal and not, in this country. http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/d... It makes interesting reading, and some might disagree with the methods used, but there's a certain logic to the conclusions.

Harm caused by drugs to the individual.

4 Alcohol

8 Tobacco.

>10 Cannabis

Harm caused to the individual and society combined.

1 Alcohol

6 Tobacco

8 Cannabis.

If, as some reports suggest, cannabis use is unlikely to increase significantly, then these ratings will be more or less the same.

Not, to my mind, that it makes much difference. The Drugs Act 1971 causes problems. Legalising cannabis won't solve these problems, but it will make them less impactive on users. It might, some suggest, reduce consumption of other illegal substances.

If I wanted a prisoner late on a cold set of nights, I'd target one of two types of offender: drunk drivers and druggies. If I had to stop more than four cars to get a DIC I was probably not concentrating. For druggies, I'd get one out of two. Cannabis, at least in Brighton, was everywhere. Anyone, even I, could get some within 30 mins.

I preferred druggies to DICs, but felt I was doing more for the protection of society by going for the latter.

[biggbn]

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator? Emotion and alcohol.

[B210bandit]

The relationship between alcohol and violence is extremely well documented. It's a dangerous drug, especially for young men as it increases the risk of criminal behaviour dramatically.

[George Smiley]

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

[Voldemort]

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

This is NPE, not the lounge. No need for easy point scoring if you've nothing of value to add.

[NoVetec]

Voldemort said:

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

This is NPE, not the lounge. No need for easy point scoring if you've nothing of value to add.

George hasn't seen Road House I assume.

[biggbn]

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

Wow. Perhaps I $hat in your porrage in a previous life?

[George Smiley]

biggbn said:

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

Wow. Perhaps I $hat in your porrage in a previous life?

Probably

You simply cannot trivialise how dangerous weed is by comparing it to your experience on the doors. I worked in clubs in Manchester for years and in all that time cannot recall that many serious incidents you mention. You suggested a common cause perhaps you played your part or perhaps your club was in Dagenham.

We don’t t see the full effects of habitual weed use because it’s not as readily available as alcohol. Making it legal will make people think it’s safe, it isn’t, it will lead for some into other drugs, it won’t make any problem go away.

It was briefly decriminalised then repealed for good reason.

Look at betting shops and fob machines, just harmless fun they said ....

[Davos123]

George Smiley said:

It was briefly decriminalised then repealed for good reason.

It wasn't decriminalised, it was moved from Class B to Class C and it wasn't repealed for good reason, either. It was political posturing.

[bodhi]

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

Wow. Perhaps I $hat in your porrage in a previous life?

Probably

You simply cannot trivialise how dangerous weed is by comparing it to your experience on the doors. I worked in clubs in Manchester for years and in all that time cannot recall that many serious incidents you mention. You suggested a common cause perhaps you played your part or perhaps your club was in Dagenham.

We don’t t see the full effects of habitual weed use because it’s not as readily available as alcohol. Making it legal will make people think it’s safe, it isn’t, it will lead for some into other drugs, it won’t make any problem go away.

It was briefly decriminalised then repealed for good reason.

Look at betting shops and fob machines, just harmless fun they said ....

I assume you are aware that Reefer Madness was a load of old ste, yes?

I've been around habitual smokers for nearly 20 years now, so have seen the full effects it has on people. Compared to people I have met who habitually use other intoxicants, it is incredibly easy to trivialise how dangerous it isn't.

[biggbn]

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

George Smiley said:

biggbn said:

Purely anectodal but I have run doors since I was 18 and in comparison to some lived a violent life. I have seen much more violence by people full of alcohol than any other drug. Horrible, bullying domestic violence, gang fights, square gos between people who would generally $hit themselves if they saw a scary reflection. I have had people attempt to stab me, been attacked with bricks, bats, machetes, been petrol bombed, had cars driven at my door. Head is covered in scars. Common denominator?Emotion and alcohol.

You.

Wow. Perhaps I $hat in your porrage in a previous life?

Probably

You simply cannot trivialise how dangerous weed is by comparing it to your experience on the doors. I worked in clubs in Manchester for years and in all that time cannot recall that many serious incidents you mention. You suggested a common cause perhaps you played your part or perhaps your club was in Dagenham.

We don’t t see the full effects of habitual weed use because it’s not as readily available as alcohol. Making it legal will make people think it’s safe, it isn’t, it will lead for some into other drugs, it won’t make any problem go away.

It was briefly decriminalised then repealed for good reason.

Look at betting shops and fob machines, just harmless fun they said ....

Am glad your experiences have not matched mine. But are you really saying that alcohol is not the main factor in trouble in and around pubs and clubs? Surely not? I have spent a lifetime in the industry, although this will be my last year, 33 years now, and my doors have been in and around Dundee and Perth. I have had an interesting career for sure, but the incidents I highlight have been isolated incidents in a 33 year career. Yet alcohol is the contributing factor. I am not trivialising the effects of marijuana, I am highlighting the dangers of alcohol.