Meanwhile, In Syria

[Art0ir]

jonny70 said:

I thought the war in Syria is between Sunnis and Shias Muslims . Only a fool would get involved, ita battle that has been going on for over 1000 years!

It is indeed. Syria are the last country standing in the way of Iran though, who refuse to let British and American oil run their country so have to go are dangerous terrorists that have started loads of conflicts in recent history.

[Mermaid]

Art0ir said:

jonny70 said:

I thought the war in Syria is between Sunnis and Shias Muslims . Only a fool would get involved, ita battle that has been going on for over 1000 years!

It is indeed. Syria are the last country standing in the way of Iran though, who refuse to let British and American oil run their country so have to go are dangerous terrorists that have started loads of conflicts in recent history.

Saudis - fostering terrorism.

Edited by Mermaid on Wednesday 30th January 15:15

[Art0ir]

Mermaid said:

Art0ir said:

jonny70 said:

I thought the war in Syria is between Sunnis and Shias Muslims . Only a fool would get involved, ita battle that has been going on for over 1000 years!

It is indeed. Syria are the last country standing in the way of Iran though, who refuse to let British and American oil run their country so have to go are dangerous terrorists that have started loads of conflicts in recent history.

Saudi's - fostering terrorism.

You're not far off it, a lot of the money going into the FSA is coming from Qatar and Saudi. Bastions of democracy of course.

[rufusruffcutt]

Nom de ploom said:

this is getting towards Genocide in anyone's language I fear..

Indeed, there is a deeply troubling picture in today's Times of the bodies lined up next to the river in Aleppo all shot dead at point blank range.

[Mermaid]

rufusruffcutt said:

Indeed, there is a deeply troubling picture in today's Times of the bodies lined up next to the river in Aleppo all shot dead at point blank range.

Tragic, but they will get tired of the killing at some stage soon - I hope

[Transmitter Man]

NOW to look at the last couple of days in Syria! No this is not an individual Israeli action! This is "the rest of the world" thumbing its nose at Iranian & Russian bluffs & even Russia may well be no longer bluffing but rather being a neutral force.

You only have to look at the massive number of International consultations over the past week to realise there is real coordination behind this intervention. Just think about what the Russian PM said & what President Obama has been saying. Israel had more than enough self-protective reasons to intervene, as well as the confidence in its own superior defence capabilities, to lead the way. The precursor to this Israeli intervention was the explosion in Iran. With that little problem solved without a bullet fired or a bomb dropped so far as we know (given the stealth capability of the IAF now being revealed, we can not be sure yet whether it was an entirely digital or a from the air attack), the door was opened for Israel to turn its attention to Hezbollah & Iran. First it knocked out some major installations held by Hezbollah in Lebanon. Then it was Syria's turn.

Nobody had better try to attack Israel, because the moment they do, the wrath of the USA, well supported by other nations, will be unleashed.

My personal feeling, and I could well be wrong, is that assad better start packing those bags. Not sure whether Al Maktoum will allow him to join the family though

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=30160...

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Thursday 31st January 08:56

[shouldbworking]

Interesting bit of reading on Israels destruction of a Syrian nuclear reactor in 2007. Quite a few similarities with the current situation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

[Art0ir]

Transmitter Man said:

NOW to look at the last couple of days in Syria! No this is not an individual Israeli action! This is "the rest of the world" thumbing its nose at Iranian & Russian bluffs & even Russia may well be no longer bluffing but rather being a neutral force.

You only have to look at the massive number of International consultations over the past week to realise there is real coordination behind this intervention. Just think about what the Russian PM said & what President Obama has been saying. Israel had more than enough self-protective reasons to intervene, as well as the confidence in its own superior defence capabilities, to lead the way. The precursor to this Israeli intervention was the explosion in Iran. With that little problem solved without a bullet fired or a bomb dropped so far as we know (given the stealth capability of the IAF now being revealed, we can not be sure yet whether it was an entirely digital or a from the air attack), the door was opened for Israel to turn its attention to Hezbollah & Iran. First it knocked out some major installations held by Hezbollah in Lebanon. Then it was Syria's turn.

Nobody had better try to attack Israel, because the moment they do, the wrath of the USA, well supported by other nations, will be unleashed.

My personal feeling, and I could well be wrong, is that assad better start packing those bags. Not sure whether Al Maktoum will allow him to join the family though

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=30160...

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Thursday 31st January 08:56

Your absolute glee at the prospect of open warfare and an increased death count is quite unsettling I must say.

One thinks you've been reading one too many blogs again.

[Tartan Pixie]

Art0ir said:

Your absolute glee at the prospect of open warfare and an increased death count is quite unsettling I must say.

One thinks you've been reading one too many blogs again.

+1

IMO the hubris of statements like "Nobody had better try to attack Israel, because the moment they do, the wrath of the USA, well supported by other nations, will be unleashed" is at best misguided and at worst damaging to Israel.

People currently in their 60's and at the top of their career grew up in a time when kibbutzniks were cool and Jews were the oppressed people who'd suffered in the holocaust. Political support for Israel is very strong among this crowd.

The next generation, lets say people 30 and under, are more likely to wear a 'free Palestine' badge and consider the holocaust to be something that happened in black and white. As this generation progress support for Israel will become far more questioning.

You can already see this happening. Cameron is the first UK prime minister since the war who's refused to be a patron of the Jewish National Fund and frankly I don't blame him. In the hands of a competent journalist such overt support for importing settlers to replace the native Palestinian population would become a massive vote loser. Once the votes disappear so does the support for Israel.

[Jimbeaux]

Tartan Pixie said:

Art0ir said:

Your absolute glee at the prospect of open warfare and an increased death count is quite unsettling I must say.

One thinks you've been reading one too many blogs again.

+1

IMO the hubris of statements like "Nobody had better try to attack Israel, because the moment they do, the wrath of the USA, well supported by other nations, will be unleashed" is at best misguided and at worst damaging to Israel.

People currently in their 60's and at the top of their career grew up in a time when kibbutzniks were cool and Jews were the oppressed people who'd suffered in the holocaust. Political support for Israel is very strong among this crowd.

The next generation, lets say people 30 and under, are more likely to wear a 'free Palestine' badge and consider the holocaust to be something that happened in black and white. As this generation progress support for Israel will become far more questioning.

You can already see this happening. Cameron is the first UK prime minister since the war who's refused to be a patron of the Jewish National Fund and frankly I don't blame him. In the hands of a competent journalist such overt support for importing settlers to replace the native Palestinian population would become a massive vote loser. Once the votes disappear so does the support for Israel.

There actually is no such thing as a "native Palestinian population"; but that's OK.

[Mermaid]

How are you Jim?

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

How are you Jim?

I am relatively well mermaid; yourself?

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

I am relatively well mermaid; yourself?

All well, missed your posts over the last few months. Look forward to disagreeing with you in the months to come.

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

I am relatively well mermaid; yourself?

All well, missed your posts over the last few months. Look forward to disagreeing with you in the months to come.

Deal!

[Tartan Pixie]

Jimbeaux said:

There actually is no such thing as a "native Palestinian population"; but that's OK.

Ah, the dehumanization argument:

dehumanization said:

They don't have any real attachment to the land they've farmed for generations because borders and names have changed over time, therefore the Palestinians aren't a real people.

Because they're not real people it's ok to deny them economic opportunity and clear their farmland, making way for people from Russia, Ethiopia and America. These immigrants obviously have a much greater attachment to the land because their sky fairy told them all about it.

Regardless of what Palestinians call themselves they've been there for a long time, however if you want to make it culturally acceptable to move them off their land then you have to dehumanize them first. By denying that native Palestinians exist you are blinding yourself to hundreds of years worth of their history, stripping away their cultural heritage and demeaning their very existence.

Please note that I am all for a strong, secure Israel. My point is that military support given to Israel because Jews were victims of the holocaust is reliant on voters in the UK, Germany and America. If the upcoming generation see giving arms to Israel as supporting an apartheid state then politicians will chase those votes by limiting support to Israel.

This is not and anti-Israeli post, quite the opposite. I just think that Israel's actions throughout the Arab spring and its ability to be a good global citizen will be the things which future voters will judge them on.

Continuing to trot out threadbare arguments about how Palestinians aren't native, or Transmitter Man's apparent glee at Assad's failings aren't just distasteful, they're indicative of how the old Zionist attitudes are undermining support that future generations of Israelis may yet need to rely on.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Art0ir]

Tartan Pixie said:

Continuing to trot out threadbare arguments about how Palestinians aren't native, or Transmitter Man's apparent glee at Assad's failings aren't just distasteful, they're indicative of how the old current Zionist attitudes are undermining support that future generations of Israelis may yet need to rely on.

[Jimbeaux]

Tartan Pixie said:

Jimbeaux said:

There actually is no such thing as a "native Palestinian population"; but that's OK.

Ah, the dehumanization argument:

dehumanization said:

They don't have any real attachment to the land they've farmed for generations because borders and names have changed over time, therefore the Palestinians aren't a real people.

Because they're not real people it's ok to deny them economic opportunity and clear their farmland, making way for people from Russia, Ethiopia and America. These immigrants obviously have a much greater attachment to the land because their sky fairy told them all about it.

Regardless of what Palestinians call themselves they've been there for a long time, however if you want to make it culturally acceptable to move them off their land then you have to dehumanize them first. By denying that native Palestinians exist you are blinding yourself to hundreds of years worth of their history, stripping away their cultural heritage and demeaning their very existence.

Please note that I am all for a strong, secure Israel. My point is that military support given to Israel because Jews were victims of the holocaust is reliant on voters in the UK, Germany and America. If the upcoming generation see giving arms to Israel as supporting an apartheid state then politicians will chase those votes by limiting support to Israel.

This is not and anti-Israeli post, quite the opposite. I just think that Israel's actions throughout the Arab spring and its ability to be a good global citizen will be the things which future voters will judge them on.

Continuing to trot out threadbare arguments about how Palestinians aren't native, or Transmitter Man's apparent glee at Assad's failings aren't just distasteful, they're indicative of how the old Zionist attitudes are undermining support that future generations of Israelis may yet need to rely on.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Well, to be specific, many were not there "for generations" but rather hoarded into the area. As to opportunity.....let's visit this oh-so-un-PC point.....The "brother nations" surrounding the "Palestinians" are very happy to go on about their oppressed brothers but don't seem concerned enough to open their borders to them and collectively absorb what would be a relatively small number. Instead, they are happy to leave them in what is a small ghetto and harp on about how bad off they are because it serves those nations' purpose fine as it is thank you very much. On top of that, the "evil West" gives more money to this group than their "brothers" combined. Just sayin'. Off my soap box as well.

[Transmitter Man]

Art,

Why do you always exaggerate over my feelings for the Syrian revolution?

You've yet to answer this question which I posed in a previous post.

FYI even the Arab Christians and Muslims seems to be coming over now and seeing Assad for what he is, murdering his own people, as well as his countries refugees;

This from one of their most welknown mosques in Jerusalem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gnxrc3hQOM&fea...

Phil

[Tartan Pixie]

Jimbeaux said:

Well, to be specific, many were not there "for generations" but rather hoarded into the area. As to opportunity.....let's visit this oh-so-un-PC point.....The "brother nations" surrounding the "Palestinians" are very happy to go on about their oppressed brothers but don't seem concerned enough to open their borders to them and collectively absorb what would be a relatively small number. Instead, they are happy to leave them in what is a small ghetto and harp on about how bad off they are because it serves those nations' purpose fine as it is thank you very much. On top of that, the "evil West" gives more money to this group than their "brothers" combined. Just sayin'. Off my soap box as well.

So, you're quite OK with 4 million people being 'hoarded' out of their homes and pushed in to ever decreasing parts of their territory. The only problem you see here is the immigration policies of neighboring countries. Implying that you either think all Palestinians would move to Jordan and Egypt if they were only given a chance, or that they should just be displaced by force?

Wow. Just. Wow.

For a start, even a portion of 4 million Palestinians is not a 'relatively small number' of people to integrate in to Jordan's population of 6 million. I mean have you seen the fuss that's been kicked up over a couple of Romanians and their dog possibly maybe coming to Britain soon? Or do you think a couple of million Palestinians will integrate well just because they're all muslims?

Next, the borders have been opened several times over the last decade and there are also tunnels running under the Egyptian border. Despite this the Palestinians haven't tried to leave - they went and did some shopping then went home again. Why? Because it's their home and they will stand up for it just like you or I would do for our homes. Your image of Palestinians being these rootless people is detached from reality.

Lastly your 'evil west' wording is pure fox news. If you think we are cynical about Obama and Cameron you should hear the swear words when a Palestinian is having a rant about Hamas or the Palestinian Authority. The banner waving 'kill all Americans' types so beloved of news reports are no more representative of your average West Bank resident than the Westboro Baptist church are a good representation of Americans.

For the most part Palestinian women are educated and don't wear the Niqab, the culture is far closer to Lebanese tolerance than Saudi puritanism. Food has a Mediterranean feel with interesting herbs, though it's possible to get a bit sick of felafel and spiced tea. They sing, they dance, they play games at the internet cafe, they are people like you and I.

Even as a white Brit with very little arabic I found the West Bank to be quite a friendly place. With the exception of one angry taxi driver in Bethlehem I found people to be well versed in the difference between British people and the British government, honestly you're likely to receive more racism in 2 hours in Bradford than I received in two weeks in Palestine.

I hope that cut through some of the media spin on this issue and didn't come across too much as having a go at you.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Saturday 2nd February 00:09

[Art0ir]

Transmitter Man said:

Art,

Why do you always exaggerate over my feelings for the Syrian revolution?

Did I? Your last post seemed positively jovial at the prospect of Israel weighing in which will only raise tensions in the region imo.

Transmitter Man said:

You've yet to answer this question which I posed in a previous post.

FYI even the Arab Christians and Muslims seems to be coming over now and seeing Assad for what he is, murdering his own people, as well as his countries refugees;

This from one of their most welknown mosques in Jerusalem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gnxrc3hQOM&fea...

Phil

What question? Why there's videos of some people chanting his death?

If we want to play the Youtube game I can post some videos of massive Pro Assad marches if you like or show you how the "freedom fighters" have butchered Christian neighbourhoods and burnt down churches?

This is a sectarian conflict, not some great fight for freedom. This is Sunni financed by Sunni to murder Shia.

I've said before, Assad is no angel, he is a dictator in most senses of the word. But Syria is one of the few remaining secular countries in the region. That IS important.

If this was really about democracy or personal freedom, why are we not taking on the Gulf states?

That's one question you haven't answered me yet. Seriously, stop kidding yourself.