Meanwhile, In Syria

[Mermaid]

chim said:

...

IMHO it is high time we in the west stopped trying to impose our values on others, it's a bit like having the Mormons chaping your door each day when you are a confirmed atheist. Completly pointless and fking annoying.

With strong countries like China, and I make no apology for repeating this, our PM says: 'We are different countries, we have different histories, different stages of development."

With Arab countries, all Muslim BTW, it seems to be a different approach except for those that have the US on their side. Imagine this happened in Bahrain, Saudi. If the Saudi citizens wanted democracy, what would be the reaction of the Saudi authorities?

[MX7]

chim said:

IMHO it is high time we in the west stopped trying to impose our values on others, it's a bit like having the Mormons chaping your door each day when you are a confirmed atheist. Completly pointless and fking annoying.

As Morocco came to us and asked us to condemn Syria, your argument about imposing on others doesn't really count. Which fits in with all your other posts.

Edited by MX7 on Tuesday 7th February 21:34

[Tartan Pixie]

chim said:

Syria, like many/most middle east countries is highly divided, the hatred amongst these factions runs very deep. It is no coincidence that they are all mostly ruled by strong arm regimes of one sort or other. Without these power players the factions would be at constant war. Democracy does not work, the sooner we in the west wake up to this fact the better. Just look at Iraq now. They are effectively on a knife edge with factions constantly fighting day in day out. if there is a guy at the top with a ruthless streak and big stick they are effectively kept in line, without it these countries would/do have choas.

IMHO it is high time we in the west stopped trying to impose our values on others, it's a bit like having the Mormons chaping your door each day when you are a confirmed atheist. Completly pointless and fking annoying.

Edited by chim on Tuesday 7th February 20:51

So your argument is that we should support brutal dictators because the Arab people are so uncivilized they have to be ruled by fear rather than have a say in their own government?

I barely know where to start with this level of ignorance.

[chim]

Tartan Pixie said:

So your argument is that we should support brutal dictators because the Arab people are so uncivilized they have to be ruled by fear rather than have a say in their own government?

I barely know where to start with this level of ignorance.

Just where did I say that, what I specifically said was was the west needs to stop trying to impose its values on other countries. I mentioned nothing of support, in fact it may help a little if our two faced politicians would stop supporting them, in fact in many of the worst cases we placed them in the positions.

We can not continue to constantly take the moral high ground. As to brutal dictators, there have been very view (most have been created by the west) It has then been in the wests intrests in many countries to paint this picture when said dictators turned side or went a tad nuts (gadafi, Saddam etc) A lot of thier actions are abhorrent to we westerners, to them though it is the norm. When you have factions that are so fanatical that they consider blowing themselfs up to be a glorious sacrifice for God you should perhaps realise that they think a little diffrent to us.

MX7 As to the governments that are asking for intervention, each and every one of these governments have no concept of democracy and do not apply it, most rule with the iron fist, most are firmly Muslim. They have never liked Assad, his regime is fundamentally Christian, something they all find very hard to stomach. If he goes the replacement will be Muslim, something that is far more to thier taste. As for morroco, again, this country is ruled by the King, this king is seen as a direct decendent of the prophet, his power is indisputable. They have elections but no single party can gain more than 20% of the vote. This keeps all the tribes happy and the King keeps all the real power.

Yip, this makes a real sound basis for the good old west to take the moral high ground again and rush in. I just wish that you guys would do little research on middle eastern politics rather than listening to the BBC withering on about the babies being killed. All that is happening here is that your delicate Christian/western sensibilities are being hurt, these sensibilities have no pace in the countries that you are are mixing them at.

[Tartan Pixie]

chim said:

Just where did I say that...

That may not be your exact wording but it is how I read your post. If you consider that these strong men must buy their guns from someone and fund those guns with exports, then leaving them in power means they must be supported by one of the larger power blocks.

You also said "Democracy does not work" and that they "are effectively on a knife edge with factions constantly fighting day in day out." This would imply very strongly that you think they need a strong man because if left to their own devices all they will do is fight.

I therefore reiterate that your argument is that we should support brutal dictators because the Arab people are so uncivilized they have to be ruled by fear rather than have a say in their own government.

If this is not what you meant then you should be more careful what you write.


ETA You seem to be coming from a good place even if we disagree, so don't worry if my posting style is a bit combative, or as some might say, a bit Glaswegian.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Wednesday 8th February 02:50

[Tartan Pixie]

chim said:

Just where did I say that, what I specifically said was was the west needs to stop trying to impose its values on other countries. I mentioned nothing of support, in fact it may help a little if our two faced politicians would stop supporting them, in fact in many of the worst cases we placed them in the positions.

We can not continue to constantly take the moral high ground. As to brutal dictators, there have been very view (most have been created by the west) It has then been in the wests intrests in many countries to paint this picture when said dictators turned side or went a tad nuts (gadafi, Saddam etc) A lot of thier actions are abhorrent to we westerners, to them though it is the norm. When you have factions that are so fanatical that they consider blowing themselfs up to be a glorious sacrifice for God you should perhaps realise that they think a little diffrent to us.

I think I can see what you're getting at but would suggest that it is you who is taking the moral high ground and that it is your "delicate Christian/western sensibilities [that] are being hurt".

It's been a while since I was in the West Bank but I doubt people have changed much in the last ten years, mostly I found that things which are abhorrent to us are just as abhorrent to your average Arab, ruling through brute force (strong man) and the death or imprisonment which such regimes rely upon is most definitely abhorrent, regardless of how Muslim someone is.

You seem to think democracy is a western value but I assure you it is not, the protagonists of the Arab spring are not asking for democracy simply because it's the latest trendy import from the west. People want to have control over their own governments so they can build a better life for themselves and people around them, in that respect Arabs are no different from us even if the democracy they want to build looks different from what we use.

Small parts of their culture may "consider blowing themselves up to be a glorious sacrifice for God", however their reasons are the same reasons any person fights for their country, opposition against foreign imperialist powers. Suicide bombing is a way of evening the odds against a technologically superior force, simple grizzly mathematics and if you're going down that route you may as well try and cash in on the 72 virgins

I could go on but it's getting late, as such I'll leave you with the reminder that Great Britain was founded on the blood of many Scots, English, Irish and Welsh lives. Clearances and sectarian violence were waged by several royal strong men and our path to democracy was rough. Arabs really aren't that different to ourselves.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Wednesday 8th February 02:37

[MX7]

chim said:

They have never liked Assad, his regime is fundamentally Christian

How do you work that one out?

Mermaid said:

How many covert operations are on-going right now?

I don't know of any. How many do you know of?

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

I don't know of any. How many do you know of?

They are covert You don't believe there are any?

[MX7]

Mermaid said:

They are covert You don't believe there are any?

I don't know, and, to be honest, I think it's a completely ridiculous line of discussion.

You're only a fag paper away from the Muslamic Ray Gun guy.

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

Mermaid said:

They are covert You don't believe there are any?

I don't know, and, to be honest, I think it's a completely ridiculous line of discussion.

You're only a fag paper away from the Muslamic Ray Gun guy.

You don't like answering questions do you?, But do like resorting to insults, as others have observed. Have a good day

[MX7]

Mermaid said:

You don't like answering questions do you?, But do like resorting to insults, as others have observed. Have a good day

I don't like answering stupid questions.

As for being insulting, both you and Mr Muslamic Ray Guns are using a basis for a discussion that has no grounding.

You really need to grow up Mermaid.

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

I don't like answering stupid questions.

As for being insulting, both you and Mr Muslamic Ray Guns are using a basis for a discussion that has no grounding.

You really need to grow up Mermaid.

Whatever you say, have a good day

[Mattygooner]

Well, judging by the tv footage, the Syrian army appear to be chugging around in reasonably fresh Russian hardware which would suggest a recent arms deal. So Russia vetoing any action would appear to be self serving (when is it ever not) but surely this is genocide and breaking international law? Shelling your own cities indiscriminately Is on par with both recently disposed leaders so why not act In the same way.

To not act would surely show up what we already know and that it was mostly about natural resources rather than humanitarian.

[Tartan Pixie]

IIRC Russia has a naval base or at least a naval presence in Syria? I can't see them being too happy about allied warplanes overhead like in Libya.

[MX7]

Mattygooner said:

surely this is genocide

I don't think it is.

"gen·o·cide 
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."


I don't think there is any clear distinction between the victims and the perpetrators, or that there could be a complete extermination of a particular group.

Mattygooner said:

To not act would surely show up what we already know and that it was mostly about natural resources rather than humanitarian.

People said the same about Libya. If you re-read the Libya thread on here, I'm sure you'll find many people claiming that we were getting involved purely for our self-interests. Six months later, and I don't really see how we came out of it any better off.

[Victor McDade]

Bit of a dilemma for the 'west' now that Al-Qaeda's Ayman Al-Zawahiri has come out to say his organisation fully supports the cause of the opposition.

They've also carried out several recent bomb blasts in Syria so are obviously 'on the ground'.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/alqaeda-behind-syria-b...

So will the USA and others side with al-Qaeda, Jordan's Muslim Brotherhood, and anti-Shia Iraqi tribes (who have been arming the opposition) to support Syria's opposition?

[chim]

Victor McDade said:

Bit of a dilemma for the 'west' now that Al-Qaeda's Ayman Al-Zawahiri has come out to say his organisation fully supports the cause of the opposition.

They've also carried out several recent bomb blasts in Syria so are obviously 'on the ground'.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/alqaeda-behind-syria-b...

So will the USA and others side with al-Qaeda, Jordan's Muslim Brotherhood, and anti-Shia Iraqi tribes (who have been arming the opposition) to support Syria's opposition?

Feeling kinda vindicated now

Can we just leave them to slug it out now, had already mentioned that Assad operates a secular goverment, something that is not to popular with the Muslim brotherhood or his middle east neighbours. If the he loses this battle the country will descend into many years of civil war, it is a hot bed of very competing religions, many in various states of extremism. If the Muslim elements win out Israel will start throwing bricks as Syria will become an entry point for multiple strikes against Israel.

We should and wil sty well away from this st storm, any intervention would be disastrous.

[Mermaid]

chim said:

Feeling kinda vindicated now

Can we just leave them to slug it out now, had already mentioned that Assad operates a secular goverment, something that is not to popular with the Muslim brotherhood or his middle east neighbours. If the he loses this battle the country will descend into many years of civil war, it is a hot bed of very competing religions, many in various states of extremism. If the Muslim elements win out Israel will start throwing bricks as Syria will become an entry point for multiple strikes against Israel.

We should and wil sty well away from this st storm, any intervention would be disastrous.

I have also said before - perfect candidate for a good old civil war.

[RichyBoy]

It's interesting the viewpoints of the news channels. Most of them seem to be for an intervention is needed with a no fly zone for no reason and one suggests there was a calm before, the existing violene has been instigated by the west. Surely none of this would be happening if it was a west friendly dictator in there, buying weapons from the west.

[MX7]

Victor McDade said:

So will the USA and others side with al-Qaeda, Jordan's Muslim Brotherhood, and anti-Shia Iraqi tribes (who have been arming the opposition) to support Syria's opposition?

I don't think that having a common emeny means that you have to side with anyone. If AQ blew up a pub, would the government feel that it's positive measure to tackle binge drinking?!!

It's about opposing Assad, not supporting anyone else.

chim said:

Can we just leave them to slug it out now

I know that you are finding this quite hard to understand, but there really hasn't been much serious talk of anything else. Even William Hague has come out and said that if we do have a peacekeeping force with the Arab League, it'll only be after Assad has stopped the violence.

chim said:

had already mentioned that Assad operates a secular goverment

Eh? No you didn't. You said,

MX7 said:

chim said:

They have never liked Assad, his regime is fundamentally Christian

How do you work that one out?

Not that I was expecting an answer!