Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[NoNeed]

Edinburger said:

Only a few more weeks 'til you're back at school, eh?

You can carry on with your trolling and daft remarks but it doesn't change nor alter any of the facts.

[Troubleatmill]

Still... it is nice knowing that the Barnett formula is being put to good use.

[AC43]

So, just to make sure I am following this; German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish students can apply for free university places in Scottish universities alongside Scottish students.

But English students can't.

Is that the gist of it?

Seems a little unfair, no?

[NoNeed]

AC43 said:

So, just to make sure I am following this; German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish students can apply for free university places in Scottish universities alongside Scottish students.

But English students can't.

Is that the gist of it?

Seems a little unfair, no?

You missed the bit where Trollburger claimed that Europe made them do it.



Still, he is happy to talk about this as it takes the spotlight off police Scotland spying on journalists sources for the Nazi party.

[AstonZagato]

Edinburger said:

Garvin said:

Edinburger said:

AC43 said:

Edinburger said:

AC43 said:

OpulentBob said:

"Fair and equal"?

So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?

You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.

If you are English, however, you are told to "fk right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.

Nice twist.

The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.

I haven't noticed an explanation - apologies if I've missed it. But from the viewpoint of a Scot living in England (who is therefore "English" in the context of this rule) this just comes across as totally discriminatory. What is the justification?

A quick copy and paste in the interests of time...

The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.

Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).

University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.

However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).

If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.

In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.

It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.

So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.

The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....

Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.

Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....

This rationale would hold some water if the number of University student places in Scotland were infinite. But they're not. They can be and are limited. Therefore there is no additional cost. It is true that English students may, therefore, flood north of the border and displace Scottish students but this is no different for any other EU student. I contend, therefore, that the policy is purely and simply discriminatory and can be for one reason only.

I'm sure it could perhaps be labelled 'discriminative' in that it's to ensure a fair proportion of Scottish pupils successfully obtain a right proportion. But can't you see why it's right to charge English students?

Remarkably, the discrimination is rather strong (and I'm not sure it will be massively helpful to the universities). My Scottish nephew has just got a place to read Medicine at the second best university in Scotland. He ticks a lot of boxes. He is Scottish, he is state educated, he's a nice lad. However, his results were ABB in his Highers. I don't know of any English university that would take ABB at A level to read medicine. I don't want to denigrate his achievement but it did strike me as rather odd.
And no, the argument about being overwhelmed by English students doesn't stack up. There are more potential students from other EU countries. My daughter is at the best university in Scotland and the number of foreigners there beggars belief. She has barely any UK friends and Scottish accents are in the minority when I visit.

[Troubleatmill]

I believe Edinburger is holding out for an honorary doctorate from St Andrews on "Defending the indefensible."


He isn't doing very well - but you have to applaud his devotion to standing his ground.


Much like this fella.

[NoNeed]

Troubleatmill said:

I believe Edinburger is holding out for an honorary doctorate from St Andrews on "Defending the indefensible."


He isn't doing very well - but you have to applaud his devotion to standing his ground.


Much like this fella.

Trollburger is far more comical though

[Welshbeef]

AC43 said:

So, just to make sure I am following this; German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish students can apply for free university places in Scottish universities alongside Scottish students.

But English students can't.

Is that the gist of it?

Seems a little unfair, no?

This to me has always been the big issue + OAP free care homes yet rUK all have to pay & rUK are fked in Scotland if they wish to study higher education. It's not a joke it's just retry vile IMHO.

[Justayellowbadge]

Edinburger said:

It can't even raise taxes..

Isn't more a case of choosing not to?

They do have tax raising powers, but prefer to blame Westminster austerity.

[AC43]

Justayellowbadge said:

Edinburger said:

It can't even raise taxes..

Isn't more a case of choosing not to?

They do have tax raising powers, but prefer to blame Westminster austerity.

Yes of course they could choose to raise more tax. But they don't.

Because it's the fault of the "Unglush".

[BlackLabel]

Justayellowbadge said:

Edinburger said:

It can't even raise taxes..

Isn't more a case of choosing not to?

They do have tax raising powers, but prefer to blame Westminster austerity.

Spent the whole election campaign whining about so called 'austerity' and 'savage cuts' yet they now have the opportunity and raise taxes and top up people's benefits yet choose not to.

[NoNeed]

As oil falls below $40 a barrel I can't help but think that the 37% should apologise for their lies and sack their leaders. Then they should start thanking the rest of Britain for having the patience of saints in dealing with the nationalist idiots.

[glazbagun]

Welshbeef said:

This to me has always been the big issue + OAP free care homes yet rUK all have to pay & rUK are fked in Scotland if they wish to study higher education. It's not a joke it's just retry vile IMHO.

FWIW I think the West Lothian question should have been answered back in 97 when they were writing the terms of devolution, and the Scottish MP's voting for rUK tuition fees were a disgrace.

That said, I don't think you can have it both ways- laughing about Scots and their lefty ways on one hand whilst all smug with the Conservative government the electorate gave you* (even if it's not still not quite as right-wing as PH would like). Then on the other hand pissing and moaning because the Scot's won't share their lefty ways with the English.

If you voted Conservative, then you voted for your kids to have higher tuition fees, voted for the abolition of maintainence grants, Westminster wants you kids to be charged 9K a year.

When the Scottish Parliament abolished the fees which Labour had introduced, they didn't do it by inventing some new money, they did it by trimming the budget elsewhere. This may come back to bite them (debt is still debt, after all, wether socialised or not, and the money is coming from other services.), but you could have voted Lib Dem in 2010 if you wanted the same, or Labour in 2015 and had a lefty coalition that would have cut the fees in all likelyhood.

• by You I mean the average PHer. I don't stalk PHers well enough to know their individual opinions!

[Slartifartfast]

Ridgemont said:

The more I think about this the more I wonder if the SNP regrets their stance. It's all very well Salmond talking about rather a rock melting in the sun, a posture he has to adhere to courtesy of the cleggopalypse, but it means that ScoGov is guaranteeing £5100 of tuition fees, which is relatively declining v rUK fees, with a greater and greater reliance on non Scottish/EU numbers to infill the deficit. It makes perfect sense for Scottish unis to hoover up low grade rUK students which will essentially undermine the reservation effect anyway.

Scotland is not producing enough doctors who want to stay in Scotland after graduating, so there are large gaps developing in hospital and GP staffing. Scottish universities are taking increasing proportion of fee-paying rUK and overseas students who return whence they came after graduating / the first year or two of working. The best indicator of whether a Scottish university medical graduate will practice in Scotland is their postcode when they apply.

[glazbagun]

Slartifartfast said:

Ridgemont said:

The more I think about this the more I wonder if the SNP regrets their stance. It's all very well Salmond talking about rather a rock melting in the sun, a posture he has to adhere to courtesy of the cleggopalypse, but it means that ScoGov is guaranteeing £5100 of tuition fees, which is relatively declining v rUK fees, with a greater and greater reliance on non Scottish/EU numbers to infill the deficit. It makes perfect sense for Scottish unis to hoover up low grade rUK students which will essentially undermine the reservation effect anyway.

Scotland is not producing enough doctors who want to stay in Scotland after graduating, so there are large gaps developing in hospital and GP staffing. Scottish universities are taking increasing proportion of fee-paying rUK and overseas students who return whence they came after graduating / the first year or two of working. The best indicator of whether a Scottish university medical graduate will practice in Scotland is their postcode when they apply.

Is that purely Scottish or is it true of regions like Lancashire/Northern England, too. I've returned to Scotland this week after getting sick of renting in London, but I too wonder what state the country will be in in another ten years if the sabre rattling continues.

IMO the SNP are a bit headless right now. Who, even ten years ago, would have expected them to have a majority in the Scottish parliament, let alone the wipeout in the GE. I certainly don't think Salmond or Sturgeon did.

I think they'll face problems in that they've done a bit of a New Labour and promised everything to everyone, which will mean the party either loses popularity when people realise they're just like anyone else, or (potentially worse), the party leaders/old guard that got them this far are gradually outed as traitors when the new breed of Left Wing MP's they've gained turn on their not-actually-so-left-wing ways.

[anonymous-user]

glazbagun said:

I've returned to Scotland this week after getting sick of renting in London, but I too wonder what state the country will be in in another ten years if the sabre rattling continues.

If the rattling continues?

Then Saint Dave will get fed up, give Scotland her independence and FFA, she'll be out of the EU with no oil to keep her afloat and the bd English can laugh from their side of the new MegaMacWall as they offer the Scots a pittance for their castles to use as holiday homes. They may keep the locals on as staff, for a handful of pounds a year (or a few million New Scottish Groats). Meanwhile, there will be a massive influx of ex-Calais migrants in to the new fair and just socialist utopia of Scotia-ex-Britannica, relieving the problems in the South-East and the gold-paved roads down here, and bringing sunshine and peaceful football matches, pubs and garrison towns to all. We'll let Corby remain, as one of those historic display villages ("Mummy, can we go and see how the yessirs lived this weekend, pleeeeeeease?").

(This may be somewhat tongue in cheek)

[AC43]

Garvin said:

That is just discrimination, pure and simple.

To be fair, the policy doesn't only discriminate against the English. If you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian, Swedish or Scottish but happen to live in England you are also denied free university places in Scottish universities.

To be generous you might argue that this levels the playing field somewhat.

Or it might be that the policy is aimed at discriminating against both the English and those who choose to live in England.

[NoNeed]

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts/news/snp-in...

[James P]

AC43 said:

Garvin said:

That is just discrimination, pure and simple.

To be fair, the policy doesn't only discriminate against the English. If you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian, Swedish or Scottish but happen to live in England you are also denied free university places in Scottish universities.

To be generous you might argue that this levels the playing field somewhat.

Or it might be that the policy is aimed at discriminating against both the English and those who choose to live in England.

If the EU is fine with discrimination within a member state so English students pay tuition fees in Scottish universities, what is to stop English universities charging Scottish students more than English students? Ridiculous premise that it is, it is not that different from the current situation.

[glazbagun]

I do wonder if Scottish uni's kept their state-funded model but could accept English students at Scottish prices, wether they would rocket up the university rankings due to student intake. Even if they had a quota of English students to accept, the competition would probably be quite high. Given the choice between Edinburgh or anywhere that isn't Oxford or Cambridge, is there a student south of the border who wouldn't want to study up north for a saving of £33K?

Now that I've typed it like that, I guess the objection within the Scottish government is that they would effectively be paying their tax/block grant money back to Westminster by educating an English domiciled student who would otherwise be shouldering £27K+ of private debt.