Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[///ajd]

glazbagun said:

I do wonder if Scottish uni's kept their state-funded model but could accept English students at Scottish prices, wether they would rocket up the university rankings due to student intake. Even if they had a quota of English students to accept, the competition would probably be quite high. Given the choice between Edinburgh or anywhere that isn't Oxford or Cambridge, is there a student south of the border who wouldn't want to study up north for a saving of £33K?

Now that I've typed it like that, I guess the objection within the Scottish government is that they would effectively be paying their tax/block grant money back to Westminster by educating an English domiciled student who would otherwise be shouldering £27K+ of private debt.

That is one reason why it is so unfair and divisive. The SNP know it is divisive, that is why they like the policy so much.

I do actually think the fees are unavoidable to allow all to go to uni - but at least it is a long term low cost loan and not an upfront cost. I do think the fees are too high - around 3-6k is OK, 9k is too high. The balance should be taxpayer funded. The UK should be all in it together though, no cosy handouts for 8% of the population cos they feel like they deserve better than the remainder.

[glazbagun]

L

///ajd said:

That is one reason why it is so unfair and divisive. The SNP know it is divisive, that is why they like the policy so much.

I do actually think the fees are unavoidable to allow all to go to uni - but at least it is a long term low cost loan and not an upfront cost. I do think the fees are too high - around 3-6k is OK, 9k is too high. The balance should be taxpayer funded. The UK should be all in it together though, no cosy handouts for 8% of the population cos they feel like they deserve better than the remainder.

Tuition fees were abolished almost as soon as they were introduced up north, so it's not so much a handout to the Scots as a cut to the south in my view. The fees are still paid, after all, by either the block grant in Scotland (requiring cash diverted from health/whatever) or the state owned Student Loans Company. So the cash is still coming out of government coffers, it's just that it hoped to eventually trickle back into England's coffers over time.

In the English case you might be paying for your education twice- once in loan repayments and twice in taxes to cover the loan repayments of the stereotypical art/philosophy student who never earns enough to pay their loan off. Something is better than nothing I guess, but I'm not sure that it's any more fiscally responsible or good for the country to be loading teenage artists with debt they can't pay than it is to pay for their course outright.

Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 13th August 01:16

[///ajd]

glazbagun said:

L

///ajd said:

That is one reason why it is so unfair and divisive. The SNP know it is divisive, that is why they like the policy so much.

I do actually think the fees are unavoidable to allow all to go to uni - but at least it is a long term low cost loan and not an upfront cost. I do think the fees are too high - around 3-6k is OK, 9k is too high. The balance should be taxpayer funded. The UK should be all in it together though, no cosy handouts for 8% of the population cos they feel like they deserve better than the remainder.

Tuition fees were abolished almost as soon as they were introduced up north, so it's not so much a handout to the Scots as a cut to the south in my view. The fees are still paid, after all, by either the block grant in Scotland (requiring cash diverted from health/whatever) or the state owned Student Loans Company. So the cash is still coming out of government coffers, it's just that it hoped to eventually trickle back into England's coffers over time.

In the English case you might be paying for your education twice- once in loan repayments and twice in taxes to cover the loan repayments of the stereotypical art/philosophy student who never earns enough to pay their loan off. Something is better than nothing I guess, but I'm not sure that it's any more fiscally responsible or good for the country to be loading teenage artists with debt they can't pay than it is to pay for their course outright.

Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 13th August 01:16

Yes, I understand that - also that the cost of the SNP policy will only really bite as the rUK funding benefits from all the repayments from the 9k/year debt from earlier students - an income that Scotland will not have. I assume the block grant in education terms will be cut as the income from English student repayments will not transfer to Scotland - but I can't find a clear answer for that anywhere. It would certainly be a scandal if English student debt repayments funded free Scottish uni places through Barnett not being reduced to only cover direct government funding. Is there any data on that already? I wonder what proportion of the education budget is already covered by debt repayment? 5%? 10%? No idea, it would be interesting to know.

[AC43]

glazbagun said:

In the English case you might be paying for your education twice- once in loan repayments and twice in taxes to cover the loan repayments of the stereotypical art/philosophy student who never earns enough to pay their loan off.

In the English case you might be paying for education three times - once in your own loan repayments, secondly in rUK taxes to cover any defaults on loan repayments and thirdly via the Barnet formula to fund free places for Scottish and European (but not English) students.

[Edinburger]

Has there been any reporting of employees growling at work today? Lots of pencils being snapped in agnger? Yells of "unbeleivable" and "what does he know" across the workplaces of Englandshire?

After all, it's been a few hours since John Bercow said that SNP MPs are "good parliamentarians" - but that can't be right? You lot were adamant they're a bunch of amateurs. A group of good-for-nothings who would bring Westminster into disrepute?

Hmmmm, who's right/wrong?

Discuss.

[Cobnapint]

Yes, they are good actors.

Good in Parliament, bad in government.

[IainT]

Holding Bercrow up as someone worth taking note of is pretty funny.

[Troubleatmill]

Edinburger said:

Has there been any reporting of employees growling at work today? Lots of pencils being snapped in agnger? Yells of "unbeleivable" and "what does he know" across the workplaces of Englandshire?

After all, it's been a few hours since John Bercow said that SNP MPs are "good parliamentarians" - but that can't be right? You lot were adamant they're a bunch of amateurs. A group of good-for-nothings who would bring Westminster into disrepute?

Hmmmm, who's right/wrong?

Discuss.

Of course they are good parliamentarians... How could they not be?
They turn up for work. ( They actually don't have much work to do though )

They don't need to do any stuff supporting their local constituents.... because the local constituents have an MSP and another Parliament taking care of it all.
Health, education, etc etc etc.

And of course.... being visible.
It isn't as if they have anything else to be getting on with, now is it?

[glazbagun]

Troubleatmill said:

Of course they are good parliamentarians... How could they not be?

Gordon Brown post premiership?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11062442/...

[AC43]

Troubleatmill said:

They don't need to do any stuff supporting their local constituents.... because the local constituents have an MSP and another Parliament taking care of it all.

This. Huge waste of rUK taxpayers' money having both lots of them.

[Nick Grant]

Anyone got any thoughts on this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

The ability to create division even in thier own movement never ceases to reach capacity.

[Axionknight]

Meh, people get disillusioned with political parties all the time, only to head off and start their own and disappear into obscurity, if the founders were even SNP members in the first place.

None story IMO.

[Borghetto]

Nick Grant said:

Anyone got any thoughts on this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

The ability to create division even in thier own movement never ceases to reach capacity.

Having to Pony up the £500 deposit to stand, should preclude all those on benefits; who's left?

[barryrs]

Sounds like an ideal SNP front too me; just like good old "business for Scotland".

Keeping the prospect of independence alive whilst not strictly pushing that agenda in Parliament.

[Axionknight]

Borghetto said:

Nick Grant said:

Anyone got any thoughts on this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

The ability to create division even in thier own movement never ceases to reach capacity.

Having to Pony up the £500 deposit to stand, should preclude all those on benefits; who's left?

Not if you listen to the Daily Mail, that lot are loaded!

[NoNeed]

Axionknight said:

Borghetto said:

Nick Grant said:

Anyone got any thoughts on this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

The ability to create division even in thier own movement never ceases to reach capacity.

Having to Pony up the £500 deposit to stand, should preclude all those on benefits; who's left?

Not if you listen to the Daily Mail, that lot are loaded!

Fluff will be along shortly to say that he has coughed up for them.

[r11co]

Nick Grant said:

Anyone got any thoughts on this....
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

It is a tactic to take advantage of the second vote in the Scottish Parliamentary elections next year. The nats were discussing this as a ploy months ago.

IMO it should be investigated as electoral fraud if it can be shown anyone involved is straddling two camps.

[fluffnik]

NoNeed said:

Fluff will be along shortly to say that he has coughed up for them.

Since they seem to be a Unionist confabulation, I don't think so.

[Welshbeef]

fluffnik said:

NoNeed said:

Fluff will be along shortly to say that he has coughed up for them.

Since they seem to be a Unionist confabulation, I don't think so.

Good old fluffy - how'd you feeling about the additional buy to let tax coming your way from the Tory govt? Must piss you off a Tory Govts looking to tax those trying to make over and above day job.



Also I see zero comment from you of any SNP supporter about the countless links to "interesting" issues raised over the last few months. Clearly it's a problem as it puts your position of supporting them in disarray.

[anonymous-user]

Fluff, I kind of like you and I definitely respect your unwavering unflappable stance. I wish you'd post a bit more. I get the impression you're not anti-English, but you have your principles and thoughts on the whole Independence thing, and you'd give a good discussion. Just a shame the rest of us (on both sides) get a bit "het up" about it.