Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
toppstuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
toppstuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
Neurotic stuff that misses the point.
Ukraine wants shot of Russia because the country is producing turnips while other ex-soviet countries of similar size such as Poland are much richer, making Volkswagens and washing machines. It is hardly surprising that sooner or later Ukraine would be pissed off that Russian-sympathetic oligarchs appear to have stolen their cash. (Ironically, this is no different to Russia, with the exception that the citizens of Russia don't seem to have noticed yet that their noble bourgeoisie have stolen everything just as they did before the Russian revolution 100 years ago..)
Well, Ukrainians have noticed how dirt-poor they are. And they blame Russia for that. They have a point, too..
Europe can ignore them or welcome them. Either way, Ukraine doesn't want to have ties with Russia anymore - not because the EU or the US has somehow enchanted them; not because the EU or US has somehow made them any promises. Ukraine wants to look west rather than east simply because they are sick of the Russians stealing everything from them.
The fact is the EU is using financial sweeteners to shift it's and NATO's borders onto what Russia,arguably justifiably,regards as it's turf and/or historic sphere of influence.If those areas want to break away from that Russian influence fine.But that shouldn't be taken advantage of by the EU and NATO to then move in using our money to do it and it will obviously need to be done in a way which recognises Russian interests and Russian loyalist localised majorities just as in the case of the partition of Ireland.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 14:06
Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 14:10
But the Ukrainians are not mere stooges in this. They are largely looking west simply because Russia has treated them badly and Ukraine has not had the same benefit of modernised economies in the post soviet era, enjoyed so much by other ex soviet countries like Czech, Hungary and Poland.
The EU is complicit. I accept that. But you overstate it. Russia is equally responsible for their own situation simply because they are so unpopular with their old neighbours. Any ex Soviet country that is not culturally ethnic Russian or similar, would rather face the west than their old oppressors. You can't discount this fact to the extent you do.
The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the s
t hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late. creampuff said:
2013BRM said:
Obama just been on, sounded pretty pissed off with Putin, be nice if our PM had the balls to say something similar.
It was a very disappointing speech by Obama. If you compare Obama's comments to Reagan's after KAL007 was shot down, both speaches about the same time after the event, Obama seems a complete lightweight. XJ Flyer said:
I'd suggest it would be a catastrophic mistake to regard the slavic east European countries as not 'culturally' Russian at least from western Europe's point of view.
The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the st hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late.
You haven't met many Russians have you? And even fewer people from other Eastern European countries , former members of the USSR. That much is clear. The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the s
t hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late. tenpenceshort said:
What signs have we had of Russian contrition so far? They appear to have taken Crimea. They have been continuing an offensive against the Ukraine. They have resisted Western attempts to remove Assad. They've sponsored the downing of the plane and as yet haven't made any sorry noises or promised any action.
Where has Russia had to change under pressure from the West (or anywhere else)?
I think you'll find that Assad is on our side against Isis amongst other Islamic extremists.Having said that with all the anti Russian anti Israeli pro Hamas etc etc propaganda coming from the so called unbiased BBC it's difficult to know which side we are actually on any longer.Where has Russia had to change under pressure from the West (or anywhere else)?
XJ Flyer said:
toppstuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
toppstuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
Neurotic stuff that misses the point.
Ukraine wants shot of Russia because the country is producing turnips while other ex-soviet countries of similar size such as Poland are much richer, making Volkswagens and washing machines. It is hardly surprising that sooner or later Ukraine would be pissed off that Russian-sympathetic oligarchs appear to have stolen their cash. (Ironically, this is no different to Russia, with the exception that the citizens of Russia don't seem to have noticed yet that their noble bourgeoisie have stolen everything just as they did before the Russian revolution 100 years ago..)
Well, Ukrainians have noticed how dirt-poor they are. And they blame Russia for that. They have a point, too..
Europe can ignore them or welcome them. Either way, Ukraine doesn't want to have ties with Russia anymore - not because the EU or the US has somehow enchanted them; not because the EU or US has somehow made them any promises. Ukraine wants to look west rather than east simply because they are sick of the Russians stealing everything from them.
The fact is the EU is using financial sweeteners to shift it's and NATO's borders onto what Russia,arguably justifiably,regards as it's turf and/or historic sphere of influence.If those areas want to break away from that Russian influence fine.But that shouldn't be taken advantage of by the EU and NATO to then move in using our money to do it and it will obviously need to be done in a way which recognises Russian interests and Russian loyalist localised majorities just as in the case of the partition of Ireland.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 14:06
Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 14:10
But the Ukrainians are not mere stooges in this. They are largely looking west simply because Russia has treated them badly and Ukraine has not had the same benefit of modernised economies in the post soviet era, enjoyed so much by other ex soviet countries like Czech, Hungary and Poland.
The EU is complicit. I accept that. But you overstate it. Russia is equally responsible for their own situation simply because they are so unpopular with their old neighbours. Any ex Soviet country that is not culturally ethnic Russian or similar, would rather face the west than their old oppressors. You can't discount this fact to the extent you do.
The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the s
t hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late. Well, can you provide proof of that, or is your assertion purely to reinforce your long [very long] stated beliefs on here.
Bluebarge said:
I agree with most of what you say but I wouldn't describe a trade club that meets up every so often to squabble about haddock quotas as in any way an "empire".
What it is, however, is an inclusive club which tries to keep everyone semi-happy but rarely has the power to insist on anything (unless a member nation goes bankrupt and requires a bailout). It is therefore the complete opposite to an empire founded on fear and coercion, which is what the Russians appear to be trying to build, 70 years after everyone else in Europe decided it was a st idea.
The concept of a Russian/German alliance in which the Germans surrender all their economic advantage to hook up with an unstable kleptocracy with a pathetically limited skills-base and rampant social problems, is about the most bat-st crazy bit of 19c thinking I have ever heard, and a demonstration of how divorced from reality some Russian thinking is.
The immediate challenge for the West is to devise a set of sanctions that will remind Russia what a house of cards its economy is without prompting further lunatic action (some NATO reinforcing of Poland and the Baltic States via some long-running "exercises" may be in order).
The longer-term challenge is to educate Russians who are fed an outdated world view by a govt-controlled press. "How do we civilise Russia?" is the key long-term question.
Best post for days.What it is, however, is an inclusive club which tries to keep everyone semi-happy but rarely has the power to insist on anything (unless a member nation goes bankrupt and requires a bailout). It is therefore the complete opposite to an empire founded on fear and coercion, which is what the Russians appear to be trying to build, 70 years after everyone else in Europe decided it was a s
t idea.The concept of a Russian/German alliance in which the Germans surrender all their economic advantage to hook up with an unstable kleptocracy with a pathetically limited skills-base and rampant social problems, is about the most bat-s
t crazy bit of 19c thinking I have ever heard, and a demonstration of how divorced from reality some Russian thinking is.The immediate challenge for the West is to devise a set of sanctions that will remind Russia what a house of cards its economy is without prompting further lunatic action (some NATO reinforcing of Poland and the Baltic States via some long-running "exercises" may be in order).
The longer-term challenge is to educate Russians who are fed an outdated world view by a govt-controlled press. "How do we civilise Russia?" is the key long-term question.
There are a lot of people here who seem to think Putin's thugocracy is of equal moral standing to EU governments. Let's remind ourselves: Yushchenko's poisoning, Litvinenko's poisoning, anti-gay legislation, the state's treatment of that girl pop group, Politkovskaya's treatment in Chechnya (eventually murdered on Mr Putin's birthday, FFS!), Nashi bullying, etc.
toppstuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
I'd suggest it would be a catastrophic mistake to regard the slavic east European countries as not 'culturally' Russian at least from western Europe's point of view.
The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the st hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late.
You haven't met many Russians have you? And even fewer people from other Eastern European countries , former members of the USSR. That much is clear. The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.
All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.
The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the s
t hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late. XJflyer is that bloke in the pub with an opinion on everything and an absence of humility.
Ukraine has a GDP just a third that of Poland, and with twice the percentage of its people living below the poverty line compared to Poland.
The country has been systematically robbed and oppressed by Russia. Even after the demise of the USSR, the country has not been able to break free because of corrupt politics.
This is motivation enough.
The EU offers stability, protection and economic prosperity to its members. It can hardly be blamed for doing this. And it is not the EU's fault that it makes Russia look like the brutal corrupt bully that it is.
The fact that Russia makes the EU look good is hardly the EU's fault. Even if the EU never existed, many Ukranians would want rid of Russia.
And Xj's view that somehow the "eastern and slavic" nations somehow represent some amorphous, Russian-friendly "blob" is quite wrong. Most of Russia's neighbours hate them.
Ukraine has a GDP just a third that of Poland, and with twice the percentage of its people living below the poverty line compared to Poland.
The country has been systematically robbed and oppressed by Russia. Even after the demise of the USSR, the country has not been able to break free because of corrupt politics.
This is motivation enough.
The EU offers stability, protection and economic prosperity to its members. It can hardly be blamed for doing this. And it is not the EU's fault that it makes Russia look like the brutal corrupt bully that it is.
The fact that Russia makes the EU look good is hardly the EU's fault. Even if the EU never existed, many Ukranians would want rid of Russia.
And Xj's view that somehow the "eastern and slavic" nations somehow represent some amorphous, Russian-friendly "blob" is quite wrong. Most of Russia's neighbours hate them.
Jimbeaux said:
tenpenceshort said:
jmorgan said:
But what if Putin says no?
Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
toppstuff said:
XJflyer is that bloke in the pub with an opinion on everything and an absence of humility.
Ukraine has a GDP just a third that of Poland, and with twice the percentage of its people living below the poverty line compared to Poland.
The country has been systematically robbed and oppressed by Russia. Even after the demise of the USSR, the country has not been able to break free because of corrupt politics.
This is motivation enough.
The EU offers stability, protection and economic prosperity to its members. It can hardly be blamed for doing this. And it is not the EU's fault that it makes Russia look like the brutal corrupt bully that it is.
The fact that Russia makes the EU look good is hardly the EU's fault. Even if the EU never existed, many Ukranians would want rid of Russia.
And Xj's view that somehow the "eastern and slavic" nations somehow represent some amorphous, Russian-friendly "blob" is quite wrong. Most of Russia's neighbours hate them.
Poland is only as rich as it is because of the amount of 'our' cash that's been given to it.Yes fine there's nothing wrong with Ukraine wanting to go it's own way. Just so long as they look after themselves not with our cash and it's done in a way which recognises the Russian minority in just the same way that the Ulster unionist/loyalist minority was recognised in the settlement that resulted in the partition of Ireland.With no bribes from us to move the EU and NATO eastwards.Thereby threatening Russia bearing in mind your statement that everyone 'hates' them.Ukraine has a GDP just a third that of Poland, and with twice the percentage of its people living below the poverty line compared to Poland.
The country has been systematically robbed and oppressed by Russia. Even after the demise of the USSR, the country has not been able to break free because of corrupt politics.
This is motivation enough.
The EU offers stability, protection and economic prosperity to its members. It can hardly be blamed for doing this. And it is not the EU's fault that it makes Russia look like the brutal corrupt bully that it is.
The fact that Russia makes the EU look good is hardly the EU's fault. Even if the EU never existed, many Ukranians would want rid of Russia.
And Xj's view that somehow the "eastern and slavic" nations somehow represent some amorphous, Russian-friendly "blob" is quite wrong. Most of Russia's neighbours hate them.
As for me I'd say that what's been said here by the EU supporters is as good a reason as any why the federation is at least as much a danger to peace and stability as Russia.
Mermaid said:
Jimbeaux said:
tenpenceshort said:
jmorgan said:
But what if Putin says no?
Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
No serious politician is going to suggest any action which threatens Russia because we need their cooperation as world powers. That is what is needed to effectively address this nonsense. In consequence this disgrace carries on without change. It is as you suggest an absolute disgrace, Mermaid.
But I cannot see much hope of any change in the status quo in the near future and without that things will continue as they are. I am sorry to say I think that the accident investigators will really have their hands tied and be dened large amounts of evidence. Whether sufficient detail can be gleaned to allow reasonable certainty of the dreadful business in some detail remains to be seen.
toppstuff said:
Jimbeaux said:
tenpenceshort said:
jmorgan said:
But what if Putin says no?
Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?
Russia has a lot to worry about. The relationship between Russia and China is not an easy one. Rumor has it that China utterly robbed Russia on the recent gas deal. China wants the gas but China does not like Russia much at all - witness the hoards of troops China chooses to line up on its borders with Russia. No, it would be a mistake to think that China and Russia like each other.
The country I don't trust much is Germany. They see themselves as the de facto rulers of Europe. I'm not surprised the Americans have been spying on them !
Edited by toppstuff on Monday 21st July 16:34
As for Germany they are still too busy taking advantage of the economic advantages which America gave them in the post war rebuilding of Europe to want to lose it all in a stupid conflict over a Russian turf war.Having said that it's almost as if the ghost of Hitler is pulling the strings regards EU joint foreign policy.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 18:25
Guam said:
Sky Newsflash Hundreds of "separatists" heading towards Russian border, looks like some of them at least may be getting out of Dodge?
Make of that what you will!
At worse Russia is preparing the ground for the real forces who know what they are doing to move in.In sufficient numbers to do it.Make of that what you will!
Guam said:
Sky Newsflash Hundreds of "separatists" heading towards Russian border, looks like some of them at least may be getting out of Dodge?
Make of that what you will!
Perhaps it is just the Russian soldiers going home after their pretence of being separatists. Or as xjflyer would have it, they are getting out of range of the nuclear warheads.Make of that what you will!
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