Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[essayer]

God how do they identify the bodies? No relative would be asked surely ?

[vonuber]

XJ Flyer said:

And I know that you don't really like or tolerate disagreement with your point of view a bit like the EU in that respect.

You seem to have an obsession with Russia 'rightful' sphere of influence and that they should just be able to get ln with it.
You think all slavs are actually Russians (including the easily bribed 'yugoslavs').
You see the shade of hitler behind the EU.
You also see America as being weak.

Are you sure you are not on the kremlin payroll, xjflyreranov?

[Transmitter Man]

Just came across this FWIW:

http://gizmodo.com/a-tweetbot-caught-the-russian-g...

Phil

[AreOut]

http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/photo/gal...

official site of russian army

on the last picture they claim it's from Krasnoarmeysk which is under ukrainian control from 11th May, I don't think they would put it on official site without checking it

the pictures before are also interesting and tend to put the blame on ukrainian army however if I got that right from my bad russian they don't have hard evidence only allegations, mainly that there was a Sukhoi fighter very near 777 and rebels might have mistaken their goal or thought Sukhoi is escorting the AN26 transport aircraft

[davepoth]

essayer said:

God how do they identify the bodies? No relative would be asked surely ?

I guess they'll avoid it where possible. There will be lots of methods - checking for ID on the bodies, dental records, DNA matching, and even checking the seat number that the corpse is still belted into.

[rich85uk]

essayer said:

God how do they identify the bodies? No relative would be asked surely ?

DNA, dental records etc. it seems that it is possible that the fire was very intense at one part and some may have been 'vaporised'

[DonnyMac]

essayer said:

God how do they identify the bodies? No relative would be asked surely ?

I believe I heard that the Netherlands have already sent forensic dental investigators to aid indentification of the dead.

[skyrover]

Rumour the Russians are placing naval mines in the Sea of Azov

https://twitter.com/georgivs_cit/status/4911625235...

[XJ Flyer]

vonuber said:

XJ Flyer said:

And I know that you don't really like or tolerate disagreement with your point of view a bit like the EU in that respect.

You seem to have an obsession with Russia 'rightful' sphere of influence and that they should just be able to get ln with it.
You think all slavs are actually Russians (including the easily bribed 'yugoslavs').
You see the shade of hitler behind the EU.
You also see America as being weak.

Are you sure you are not on the kremlin payroll, xjflyreranov?

I don't think calling for a return to the policy of just 'our'( IE western Europe's ) defence,based on the deterrent aspects of mutually assured destruction.Possibly with the de militarisation of the now former eastern bloc/soviet states.Fits being on the Kremlin payroll.

As opposed to a flawed policy of offence based on 'containment' by moving NATO's remit up to Russia's borders.All to save America from having to risk it's homeland,while putting the whole of Europe at more risk of conflict with Russia and resulting destruction or occupation.

More like just telling it like it is.

[skyrover]

Shrapnel damage in what appears to be a section toward the nose of the aircraft



Possibly consistent with a missile launched before an aircraft reached the position?

[Jimbeaux]

toppstuff said:

XJ Flyer said:

I'd suggest it would be a catastrophic mistake to regard the slavic east European countries as not 'culturally' Russian at least from western Europe's point of view.

The fact is the Ukrainians,like all the rest,are only looking west because they can see the carrot of £££$$$ being put in front of them by 'the west' in exchange for facilitating the EU/NATO move eastwards.As I've said elsewhere that move being part of a change in US strategy and defence policy from one of mutually assured destruction to a far more dangerous one of 'containment'.

All because the US has lost it's mojo/bottle regarding the implications of maintaining the former far more effective defence strategy both in terms of cost and detterent factor.

The combination of all that makes it more likely not less that wetern Europe and it's new found slavic 'allies' will at worse end up a smoking ruin,or at best under Russian occupation,if/when the present course inevitably leads to the st hitting the fan.What is certain is that there's no way that the US is going to risk it's homeland for Europe and that's the bit the anti Russian pro EU expansionist lot need to get their heads around before it's too late.

You haven't met many Russians have you? And even fewer people from other Eastern European countries , former members of the USSR. That much is clear.

He comes back with this stale argument every time a Russian-related thread surfaces. It's like a rerun of Gilligan's Island, you know the outcome by heart.

[eccles]

skyrover said:

Shrapnel damage in what appears to be a section toward the nose of the aircraft



Possibly consistent with a missile launched before an aircraft reached the position?

Looks like the bottom edge of cockpit windows. Found next to a stand of trees..... branches can make puncture damage like that. (just playing devils advocate)

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

tenpenceshort said:

jmorgan said:

But what if Putin says no?


Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?

Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.

That is an invalid assumption.

Agree, but does it not surprise you that the West has been impotent in face of this barbaric treatment of deceased innocent victims. The blood evaporates at such behaviour, Ukraine had invited the West - should have sent the cavalry to bring some dignity days ago. Little rant over,

I agree with you. It is all down to leadership Mermaid, or in this case, the lack thereof.

[Jimbeaux]

XJ Flyer said:

toppstuff said:

Jimbeaux said:

tenpenceshort said:

jmorgan said:

But what if Putin says no?


Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?

Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.

That is an invalid assumption.

Spot on Jimbeaux.

Russia has a lot to worry about. The relationship between Russia and China is not an easy one. Rumor has it that China utterly robbed Russia on the recent gas deal. China wants the gas but China does not like Russia much at all - witness the hoards of troops China chooses to line up on its borders with Russia. No, it would be a mistake to think that China and Russia like each other.

The country I don't trust much is Germany. They see themselves as the de facto rulers of Europe. I'm not surprised the Americans have been spying on them !

Edited by toppstuff on Monday 21st July 16:34

There seems to be some misguided apprehension that a powerful China is preferable to a powerful Russia and that if push came to shove between the US and Russia China would ally itself with the US.Big mistake probably outweighing that which Napoleon,Hitler and we made in 1914 combined.

As for Germany they are still too busy taking advantage of the economic advantages which America gave them in the post war rebuilding of Europe to want to lose it all in a stupid conflict over a Russian turf war.Having said that it's almost as if the ghost of Hitler is pulling the strings regards EU joint foreign policy.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 18:25

Nobody said a powerful China would be preferable to a powerful Russia. What is being said is that the two mistrust one another and are fundimentally so different that a meaningful alliance will not work. There also seems to be a misconception by you on the power those two nations actually have.

[lamboman100]

eccles said:

skyrover said:

Shrapnel damage in what appears to be a section toward the nose of the aircraft



Possibly consistent with a missile launched before an aircraft reached the position?

Looks like the bottom edge of cockpit windows. Found next to a stand of trees..... branches can make puncture damage like that. (just playing devils advocate)

Assuming the pic and metal are real, it looks broadly consistent with a SAM exploding pre-impact, upwards at a ~45-degree angle, leaving shrapnel holes and scorch-marks.

[lamboman100]

Jimbeaux said:

XJ Flyer said:

toppstuff said:

Jimbeaux said:

tenpenceshort said:

jmorgan said:

But what if Putin says no?


Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?

Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.

That is an invalid assumption.

Spot on Jimbeaux.

Russia has a lot to worry about. The relationship between Russia and China is not an easy one. Rumor has it that China utterly robbed Russia on the recent gas deal. China wants the gas but China does not like Russia much at all - witness the hoards of troops China chooses to line up on its borders with Russia. No, it would be a mistake to think that China and Russia like each other.

The country I don't trust much is Germany. They see themselves as the de facto rulers of Europe. I'm not surprised the Americans have been spying on them !

Edited by toppstuff on Monday 21st July 16:34

There seems to be some misguided apprehension that a powerful China is preferable to a powerful Russia and that if push came to shove between the US and Russia China would ally itself with the US.Big mistake probably outweighing that which Napoleon,Hitler and we made in 1914 combined.

As for Germany they are still too busy taking advantage of the economic advantages which America gave them in the post war rebuilding of Europe to want to lose it all in a stupid conflict over a Russian turf war.Having said that it's almost as if the ghost of Hitler is pulling the strings regards EU joint foreign policy.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 18:25

Nobody said a powerful China would be preferable to a powerful Russia. What is being said is that the two mistrust one another and are fundimentally so different that a meaningful alliance will not work. There also seems to be a misconception by you on the power those two nations actually have.

The world now is controlled by 4 countries -- US, China, Russia and Germany.

Putin is simply throwing his weight around and jockeying for his country's position in the pecking order.

[eccles]

lamboman100 said:

eccles said:

skyrover said:

Shrapnel damage in what appears to be a section toward the nose of the aircraft



Possibly consistent with a missile launched before an aircraft reached the position?

Looks like the bottom edge of cockpit windows. Found next to a stand of trees..... branches can make puncture damage like that. (just playing devils advocate)

Assuming the pic and metal are real, it looks broadly consistent with a SAM exploding pre-impact, upwards at a ~45-degree angle, leaving shrapnel holes and scorch-marks.

At first glance it does, but without context it could be anything. It could have impacted the trees at high speed and then been scorched in the fire.
There are similar skin punctures in other bits of wreckage from the empennage.... channel 4 news reporter was showing what an expert had told him was part of the undercarriage (made out of sheet metal!) with punctures which he said may have been made by shrapnel from a missile..... so lots of holes which could have made by a missile from all over the aircraft.

[Jimbeaux]

lamboman100 said:

Jimbeaux said:

XJ Flyer said:

toppstuff said:

Jimbeaux said:

tenpenceshort said:

jmorgan said:

But what if Putin says no?


Not trolling BTW. How far can they realistically go?

Then nothing goes anywhere. Nobody will mess with Russia and Russia will only comply with something if it's in their best interests. Whilst they're sat on plenty of natural resources and chatting along with China, Russia hasn't got much to worry about.

That is an invalid assumption.

Spot on Jimbeaux.

Russia has a lot to worry about. The relationship between Russia and China is not an easy one. Rumor has it that China utterly robbed Russia on the recent gas deal. China wants the gas but China does not like Russia much at all - witness the hoards of troops China chooses to line up on its borders with Russia. No, it would be a mistake to think that China and Russia like each other.

The country I don't trust much is Germany. They see themselves as the de facto rulers of Europe. I'm not surprised the Americans have been spying on them !

Edited by toppstuff on Monday 21st July 16:34

There seems to be some misguided apprehension that a powerful China is preferable to a powerful Russia and that if push came to shove between the US and Russia China would ally itself with the US.Big mistake probably outweighing that which Napoleon,Hitler and we made in 1914 combined.

As for Germany they are still too busy taking advantage of the economic advantages which America gave them in the post war rebuilding of Europe to want to lose it all in a stupid conflict over a Russian turf war.Having said that it's almost as if the ghost of Hitler is pulling the strings regards EU joint foreign policy.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 21st July 18:25

Nobody said a powerful China would be preferable to a powerful Russia. What is being said is that the two mistrust one another and are fundimentally so different that a meaningful alliance will not work. There also seems to be a misconception by you on the power those two nations actually have.

The world now is controlled by 4 countries -- US, China, Russia and Germany.

Putin is simply throwing his weight around and jockeying for his country's position in the pecking order.

How does a nation with an economy the size of Italy share a quarter of world domination? I get that he is a regional power, mostly due to oil and gas exports but come on.

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

How does a nation with an economy the size of Italy share a quarter of world domination? I get that he is a regional power, mostly due to oil and gas exports but come on.

Big guns & a big bank balance help you get to the top table.

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

How does a nation with an economy the size of Italy share a quarter of world domination? I get that he is a regional power, mostly due to oil and gas exports but come on.

Big guns & a big bank balance help you get to the top table.

Oh, so private bank balances count then?