Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?

[marcosgt]

Munter said:

thinfourth2 said:

mrmr96 said:

Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.

Fine in principle but when did you last see a small locally owned shop in a town centre

Most town centres are identical to out of town retail parks just with worse parking

And the large chains also employ local people in their out of town center stores. It's just relocating the work available to somewhere people want to be.

People don't really WANT to be in out of town shopping car parks do they?

The greed of councils regarding car parking drives people to the out of town shopping centres, with their free parking, but most people would probably prefer to shop in towns with a variety of chain and unique, personal shops and other attractions (parks, churches, castles, etc) surely (I certainly do).

Given the choice of a trip to Guildford (for example) or the out of town shopping centres, I'll actually park a way out of town (where the parking's free) and walk in.

Obviously, if the town in question just has the usual run of tedious chains (as even Guildford does, sadly) it's less attractive.

If I know what I want I'll just buy it off the internet

Someone said that only large towns can sustain themselves (or words to that effect, sorry if I've misinterpreted your statement), but I live in Fleet, which has always been a small town with a sense of being a unique place - I can remember some neighbours saying they liked shopping in Fleet 20+ years ago because of that aspect, compared to the other towns around (it faces similar challenges to all and has many of the faceless chains and yet features a good collection of privately owned shop, albeit alongside far too many pubs these days), without the benefits of the charms of somewhere like nearby Farnham.

It's probably harder in more impoverished area with high rates of unemployment (or low paid employment), but it's not only the Guildfords and Yorks (another city I visited over the Xmas break) that can sustain a vibrant high street with a unique character.

M

Edited by marcosgt on Friday 4th January 10:44

[otolith]

oyster said:

This will all change when legislation exists to have compulsory car parking charges in out of town shopping centres.

I suspect it's not far off.

Yep, but people won't go back to the high street, they'll buy even more online.

[scenario8]

marcosgt said:

quote

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of people shopping at Bluewater (for example) don't particularly value those things you mention over the qualities they see in Bluewater (which has a huge number of eclectic stores as well as numerous eating and entertainment options available as well as landscaped grounds). Given the choice of Chatham or Bluewater I can see why people would drive quite a distance - especialy since driving from Reigate, for example, to Central Croydon would take at least as long as to Bluewater or even Sutton to Kingston.

These uber out of town parks are designed almost from a blank piece of paper so work relatively well. Inner cities and large rural towns will have developed over centuries and have horrible compromises between historic building and modern living.

The same may well apply for Sheffield (Meadowhal) and Bristol (Cribbs Causeway) and numerous other cities. Not everywhere is as "nice" as Guildford, as you say. Driving into central Guildford, of course, also being pretty awful mostly due to the shere numbers of visitors and the compromises of its prolonged and historic development.

Edited by scenario8 on Friday 4th January 10:49

[Munter]

Changedmyname said:

Munter said:

Exactly. It wasn't a set of values that we should continue to protect somehow. It's always been convenience. And that has been maintained with the introduction of out of town shopping and the internet.

When you said "What I'm saying overall is these values have been lost". What values have been lost?

Okay you said it yourself "convenience"
I know most of my customers well ,what they want and when they want it and I will go out of my way to get it for them, Values.
If it wasn't convenient for me to do this and I didn't do it then my values have been lost.
I think it's proberly an age thing TBH.

Sorry I'm not sure we can count convenience as a value. And even if we did it's been maintain by the natural order of people generally doing what they think is most convenient.

You seem to be talking about good customer service. But that's a value the store holder has not the general population. And it appears is not something the population misses when shopping out of town. The internet is great at it, it's very good at suggesting things you might be interested in and telling you what is in stock and if it's not when they expect it to be/allowing preorders etc. If you exclude Yodel doing "deliveries" customer service has never been better.

[Changedmyname]

Munter said:

Sorry I'm not sure we can count convenience as a value. And even if we did it's been maintain by the natural order of people generally doing what they think is most convenient.

You seem to be talking about good customer service. But that's a value the store holder has not the general population. And it appears is not something the population misses when shopping out of town. The internet is great at it, it's very good at suggesting things you might be interested in and telling you what is in stock and if it's not when they expect it to be/allowing preorders etc. If you exclude Yodel doing "deliveries" customer service has never been better.

Which ever way I know I'm doomed to become one of the jobseekers of the UK because of this.

[Digga]

otolith said:

oyster said:

This will all change when legislation exists to have compulsory car parking charges in out of town shopping centres.

I suspect it's not far off.

Yep, but people won't go back to the high street, they'll buy even more online.

^This and the law of unintented consequences, with which any legislator should familiarise themselves.

The solution is for local authorities to spend less. And, ultimately, whether they do this and see sense early (cutting town centre parking charges) or take the cowardly way out and let events force their hands, the net result will, in the very long term, be the same for them. The choice is whether we still have high streets and communities as we know them, or not.

[scenario8]

Changedmyname said:

Which ever way I know I'm doomed to become one of the jobseekers of the UK because of this.

Oh I don't know. The numbers employed in industries serving the equine sector is probably surprisingly high despite the domination of the motorcar for personal transport. There will always be room for some "local" outlets.

[Kermit power]

Changedmyname said:

Okay you said it yourself "convenience"
I know most of my customers well ,what they want and when they want it and I will go out of my way to get it for them, Values.
If it wasn't convenient for me to do this and I didn't do it then my values have been lost.
I think it's proberly an age thing TBH.

I don't know what age you would consider as the cut off point, but I'm 42.

There is one shop I make a point of using. It's a butcher.

It's not actually the closest butcher, nor is it the easiest one to park at, but their meat is better, and it's also cheaper. They're a proper butcher, not one with pretensions to being a deli with a meat counter, which the closer one has become. I use them because I understand what makes good meat, and value it immensely, despite it being a bit more expensive than hideous supermarket crap. This could be replaced by the internet, but I really like being able to choose that particular steak, or oxtail bits of a certain size and so on.

The problem I forsee for the High Street is that too many people think supermarket meat is acceptable for even the best butcher to keep above water if the shops around them close, but the shops around them are so utterly st compared to shopping online that I don't see much of an alternative at the moment. I just hope the rest of the high street can change to something attractive before the butchers go the apparent way of fishmongers (at least round here) and die out.

[JagLover]

scenario8 said:

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of people shopping at Bluewater (for example) don't particularly value those things you mention over the qualities they see in Bluewater

Indeed

It is not only the parking issue already discussed, but the whole experience of shopping indoors.

Given Britain's climate these sorts of places are the only ones where a 'cafe' culture works as well.

[anonymous-user]

Twincam16 said:

I prefer to shop in my local town centre...

you appear to be refering to cambridge, which for a start is a city and secondly is one of, if not the nicest in the country. specialist shops like richer sounds are very much the exception than the rule. blaming the internet and the 'sociopaths' who use it for the demise of the town centre is like blaming steel for the demise of iron; its just better, get over it.

[Digga]

fbrs said:

you appear to be refering to cambridge, which for a start is a city and secondly is one of, if not the nicest in the country. specialist shops like richer sounds are very much the exception than the rule. blaming the internet and the 'sociopaths' who use it for the demise of the town centre is like blaming steel for the demise of iron; its just better, get over it.

Agree. Although the local authorities deserve a hefty part of the blame and need to get the message that rates/parking fees are a very short-term strategy.

fbrs said:

its just better, get over it.

Disagree - not in every instance, my excellent local butchers and bike shop being jsut two of them.

[sparkythecat]

In most town centres it would be pretty pointless offering free parking, as the spaces would just be filled with the vehicles of workers and commuters, who would ordinarily park elsewhere or use other means of transport.

[Dracoro]

sparkythecat said:

In most town centres it would be pretty pointless offering free parking, as the spaces would just be filled with the vehicles of workers and commuters, who would ordinarily park elsewhere or use other means of transport.

Quite simple, have a 4/6 hour return limit, or free between 9.30 and 5pm etc...

They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.

[anonymous-user]

fbrs said:

its just better, get over it.

Disagree - not in every instance, my excellent local butchers and bike shop being jsut two of them.

i'll give you the butchers; no substitute. of course if you're lucky enough to have specialist shops for things that interest you then thats great but the typical british high street array of wetherspoons, costa, mcdonalds, nero, whsmiths, boots, tesco metro, sainsburys, debenhams, charity and card shops, banks and post offices blah blah blah bore me to tears and offer me very little that can't be done better from home.

[chris watton]

Things have changed, and still are changing. I used to love going to the town centre on a Saturday (work from home, so nice to be let out..)

But now, it seems that all the cool shops have gone, and all that remain are shops for woman (clothes), betting shops, mobile phone shops, Greggs, off-licences, more betting shops, even more phone shops, Pound shops and a few coffee shops - and parking charges seem to go up exponentially - even though there's a lot less to shop for! It’s quite sad when the highlight of going into town is going in WH Smiths to see what the latest mags have to offer…

I also used to enjoy visited the video shop and choosing a couple of films to watch that night, but even they have disappeared.

So, I now have little real choice but to get what I want online, as betting shops, pound shops, phone shops etc. and having to witness extremely obese people (usually in lycra skin tight garments and tops 20 sizes too small) scoffing their Greggs pasties down their gob isn’t really my bag…

[Digga]

fbrs said:

Digga said:

fbrs said:

its just better, get over it.

Disagree - not in every instance, my excellent local butchers and bike shop being jsut two of them.

i'll give you the butchers; no substitute. of course if you're lucky enough to have specialist shops for things that interest you then thats great but the typical british high street array of wetherspoons, costa, mcdonalds, nero, whsmiths, boots, tesco metro, sainsburys, debenhams, charity and card shops, banks and post offices blah blah blah bore me to tears and offer me very little that can't be done better from home.

(Fixed quoting)

I think perhaps, the topic is covering too braod a scope; there is a world of difference between larger town centres and smaller towns and villages (also at threat from Soviet business rates and parking rules) that still have significant charm to salvage.

[worsy]

marcosgt said:

Someone said that only large towns can sustain themselves (or words to that effect, sorry if I've misinterpreted your statement), but I live in Fleet, which has always been a small town with a sense of being a unique place - I can remember some neighbours saying they liked shopping in Fleet 20+ years ago because of that aspect, compared to the other towns around (it faces similar challenges to all and has many of the faceless chains and yet features a good collection of privately owned shop, albeit alongside far too many pubs these days), without the benefits of the charms of somewhere like nearby Farnham.

It's probably harder in more impoverished area with high rates of unemployment (or low paid employment), but it's not only the Guildfords and Yorks (another city I visited over the Xmas break) that can sustain a vibrant high street with a unique character.

M

Edited by marcosgt on Friday 4th January 10:44

I said only large towns can support out of town retail parks, not that only large towns should have shops.

Out of interest I know Fleet very well, well 1974 - 2005 I did. My grandparents lived there, and it was a lovely town 20 years ago. Loved Mark One records

[anonymous-user]

Digga said:

(Fixed quoting)

I think perhaps, the topic is covering too braod a scope; there is a world of difference between larger town centres and smaller towns and villages (also at threat from Soviet business rates and parking rules) that still have significant charm to salvage.

completely agree, t'internet doesn't, imo, threaten such places, thats down to the council seeing small businesses and their customers as cash cows to fund their non-jobs and pension schemes

[sparkythecat]

Dracoro said:

Quite simple, have a 4/6 hour return limit, or free between 9.30 and 5pm etc...

They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.

Yes but if it's free, where's the revenue going to come from to police it?

[Digga]

sparkythecat said:

Dracoro said:

Quite simple, have a 4/6 hour return limit, or free between 9.30 and 5pm etc...

They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.

Yes but if it's free, where's the revenue going to come from to police it?

Significan fines for overstay perhaps.

Fines for other parking offences - on junctions, crossings, double-yellows etc.

Failing that, fire some useless overheads from the council. Seriously.