Minimum Wage,£7 an hour

[mph1977]

rover 623gsi said:

interesting link

says that if you are single, over 25 and not disabled you can claim WTC if you work 30hrs a week or more - and that if you have an income of just £9,500 a year you could get an annual top up of £1,455

but if work 30hrs a week at minimum wage you earn £9,943.60 pa. and if you work 40hrs a week on minimum wage you earn £13,124.80 pa, which according to the same link nets you a total of zero WTC.

brilliant

hence the combination of ( substantially) higher Income tax personal allowance under the Coalition and the suggestion of higher minimum wage to remove more people from Liabore's crowd pleasing dependency culture ...

[S798]

eccles said:

It's all very well saying thing like that, but not everyone is a risk taking, thrusting graduate.
For many people it's a job down the local factory/call centre, a life of living on low wages. In the days before housing prices went mad, they could even save up enough for a house. Without these sort of people nothing would get made in this country. Just because they choose that way of life shouldn't mean they shouldn't be able to complain about their level of wages.

You don't have to be a risk taking, thrusting graduate at all.

Person earns minimum wage stacking shelves in a supermarket. Person decides that they do not want to do this forever. They enrol in some kind of management course at a local college or home study. They work hard to become the best shelfstacker in the store. They get rewarded with a supervisory or low level managerial position earning a bit more. They take advantage of increased training opportunities as a manager and improve their CV. They transfer to a competing store when a promotion arises. Eventually, they may become a store manager (which in some supermarkets comes with considerable salary packages - upwards of £100k for the largest supermarkets) or even go much further with the right drive, ambition and opportunities.

Some people do not want to do more than the minimum and that is fine, of course, as someone has to do the minimum wage jobs. However, if they choose not to progress themselves then I fail to see how they can have any grounds to complain. If I had not had the drive to push on up the career ladder and continued in my first job I'd probably be on about £19-20k now. The same goes for pretty much all of my peers, several of more have taken it a step further and pretty much dedicated their entire life to their careers for the last seven years and are rewarded with salaries double or more than mine or five to ten times the minimum wage.

[S798]

Thankyou4calling said:

So in a large supermarket that employs around 250 staff over various positions and hours, about how many would earn above the national average wage of around £25,000 not including overtime?

As a rough guide; one store manager (£50-100k), 2-4 duty managers (£25-45k) and perhaps one or two of the most senior departmental managers, in a larger store.

[steve954]

Well I can live on £7 p/h it really depends on how you want to live your life! My household bills come to £520 pm (not including food or car etc) I have set my living to being able to survive on a minimum wage for the worst case scenario.
The main thing is I don't have to! For example my car and bike repayments is roughly the same as all my bills but I see these as disposable and not something I need to survive.

[Grandfondo]

crankedup said:

otolith said:

What's the basis of your opinion about Tesco? Are you just looking at the big numbers and ignoring how many employees that requires ?

Of course they have had a profits slump recent years, but only because they took their eye off the ball. Naturally no employer, however large or small, is going to pay anything over the odds regarding wages. Or put another way as little as they can get away with. Retail is the worst sector to work in regards worker rates of pay, just one reason why we need a MW. The current level of MW is incredibly low, I say again why should tax payers be responsible in picking up the shortfall for businesses?

Why should the taxpayer be picking up the bill for public sector pensions?

[Thankyou4calling]

S798 said:

As a rough guide; one store manager (£50-100k), 2-4 duty managers (£25-45k) and perhaps one or two of the most senior departmental managers, in a larger store.

Thanks. So, out of 200+ people only 4 or 5 earm above average and 195 earn below. I wonder how many of those 195 receive benefits of some sort which effectively allows the supermarket to pay at such a low level.

[S798]

Thankyou4calling said:

Thanks. So, out of 200+ people only 4 or 5 earm above average and 195 earn below. I wonder how many of those 195 receive benefits of some sort which effectively allows the supermarket to pay at such a low level.

That I cannot estimate, but remember that a supermarket will have a lot of part-timers who will be earning a pro-rata of the annual minimum wage making them more elegible for benefit support as well as the fact that a supermarket is probably not a good representative as a whole, as there is a very high proportion of unskilled labour. Even in a factory based company, you'll have a lot more sales or managerial types on more than £25k.

[Thankyou4calling]

S798 said:

That I cannot estimate, but remember that a supermarket will have a lot of part-timers who will be earning a pro-rata of the annual minimum wage making them more elegible for benefit support as well as the fact that a supermarket is probably not a good representative as a whole, as there is a very high proportion of unskilled labour. Even in a factory based company, you'll have a lot more sales or managerial types on more than £25k.

Agreed, but aren't supermarkets one of the biggest UK employers? In fact if you extrapolate that across the entire retail sector you might well find a similar proportion of low paid people many of whom will be in receipt of top up benefits.

[PugwasHDJ80]

Thankyou4calling said:

Agreed, but aren't supermarkets one of the biggest UK employers? In fact if you extrapolate that across the entire retail sector you might well find a similar proportion of low paid people many of whom will be in receipt of top up benefits.

nowhere near

NHS is the biggest by a long long way- its the fifth biggest employer in the world!

then SME businesses with between 5 and 50 employees- they employ a HUGE chunk of the country.

G4S and Tesco are big single employers, but not in comparison to SME companies

These are the ones most hurt by minimum pay increased, yet are the ones that produce the most entrepreneurship (ie increase in jobs and taxes)

[SkepticSteve]

OK guys, a question for you all that is sort of relevant.

Someone at work asked for a small loan yesterday.
The amount I won't miss to be honest and the full story is deeper, but I can't say more.

He is much younger than I and struggling.
I know he rents and pays MORE than the mortgage would be, owes his parents some money, but he has 3 kids and only recently changed jobs to join us full time.

So what with Xmas and all that, I agreed.

Now I never lend to people, and of course if it become a problem it will not be repeated.

He says he will repay me soon (I can add interest, I won't) and is obviously VERY VERY embarrassed about asking.

BUT did I do the right thing?

[S798]

SkepticSteve said:

He says he will repay me soon (I can add interest, I won't) and is obviously VERY VERY embarrassed about asking.

BUT did I do the right thing?

I never would lend to anyone, but that's just me. If close friends or immediate family were in dire straits then I would consider gifting it and consider any repayment a bonus, but I never have done.

In your case, if he needed the money as a short-term fix to enable him to put food on the table for his kids and the only other resort was a PDL or loan shark, then no problem. If he wanted it so he could put fuel in an expensive to run car instead of the hassle of getting the bus to work - no.

[RYH64E]

SkepticSteve said:

OK guys, a question for you all that is sort of relevant.

Someone at work asked for a small loan yesterday.
The amount I won't miss to be honest and the full story is deeper, but I can't say more.

He is much younger than I and struggling.
I know he rents and pays MORE than the mortgage would be, owes his parents some money, but he has 3 kids and only recently changed jobs to join us full time.

So what with Xmas and all that, I agreed.

Now I never lend to people, and of course if it become a problem it will not be repeated.

He says he will repay me soon (I can add interest, I won't) and is obviously VERY VERY embarrassed about asking.

BUT did I do the right thing?

The best approach is to consider it a gift, if it's repaid that's a bonus.

[SkepticSteve]

S798 said:

SkepticSteve said:

He says he will repay me soon (I can add interest, I won't) and is obviously VERY VERY embarrassed about asking.

BUT did I do the right thing?

I never would lend to anyone, but that's just me. If close friends or immediate family were in dire straits then I would consider gifting it and consider any repayment a bonus, but I never have done.

In your case, if he needed the money as a short-term fix to enable him to put food on the table for his kids and the only other resort was a PDL or loan shark, then no problem. If he wanted it so he could put fuel in an expensive to run car instead of the hassle of getting the bus to work - no.

Harsh but very astute, I think it is just a short term cash flow problems to keep afloat.
But what of he don't even have the bus fare?

I know I'll get it get it back, unless he suddenly leaves, that is.

[Noesph]

I think it depends were you live. If you live in a cheaper area, low rent you could get by. But around here in one of cheaper bits of London, its still around £1k a month to rent a studio flat, and around £400 a month for a room.

Been on minimum wage in the past, but like someone said on this thread. Minimum wage went your out of school, living at home (I.e my situation at the time) is ok. But actually living on it is a whole different ball game.

[Benbay001]

Im on £7.40 an hour.
40 hours a week.
Luckily im 21y/o with very few bills.
The rest of the blokes i work with are on not much more (and are alot older), and they get by.

[eccles]

S798 said:

eccles said:

It's all very well saying thing like that, but not everyone is a risk taking, thrusting graduate.
For many people it's a job down the local factory/call centre, a life of living on low wages. In the days before housing prices went mad, they could even save up enough for a house. Without these sort of people nothing would get made in this country. Just because they choose that way of life shouldn't mean they shouldn't be able to complain about their level of wages.

You don't have to be a risk taking, thrusting graduate at all.

Person earns minimum wage stacking shelves in a supermarket. Person decides that they do not want to do this forever. They enrol in some kind of management course at a local college or home study. They work hard to become the best shelfstacker in the store. They get rewarded with a supervisory or low level managerial position earning a bit more. They take advantage of increased training opportunities as a manager and improve their CV. They transfer to a competing store when a promotion arises. Eventually, they may become a store manager (which in some supermarkets comes with considerable salary packages - upwards of £100k for the largest supermarkets) or even go much further with the right drive, ambition and opportunities.

Some people do not want to do more than the minimum and that is fine, of course, as someone has to do the minimum wage jobs. However, if they choose not to progress themselves then I fail to see how they can have any grounds to complain. If I had not had the drive to push on up the career ladder and continued in my first job I'd probably be on about £19-20k now. The same goes for pretty much all of my peers, several of more have taken it a step further and pretty much dedicated their entire life to their careers for the last seven years and are rewarded with salaries double or more than mine or five to ten times the minimum wage.

I applaud your sentiments, but Piston heads is full of posts like yours.I would wager that your career progression has a small element of luck, or being in the right place at the right time.
I love the vagueness of your instructions on how to proceed up the ladder 'Some sort of management course', you assume the hardest worker gets rewarded with promotion (not the bosses mate's son).
You assume they can get to night school. Here in East Anglia most market towns don't have a college, and there are no buses at night. Many villages have really crap broadband (my boss gets dial up speed and has to resort to expensive satellite broadband).
I know this sounds like excuses, but for many, many people this is reality. Not everyone lives in a large urban environment, or has the money to move there.
Yes the odd person can follow your path, but imagine a whole shift of people like yourself, perhaps you'd not be where you are now.......

[RYH64E]

eccles said:

I applaud your sentiments, but Piston heads is full of posts like yours.I would wager that your career progression has a small element of luck, or being in the right place at the right time.
I love the vagueness of your instructions on how to proceed up the ladder 'Some sort of management course', you assume the hardest worker gets rewarded with promotion (not the bosses mate's son).
You assume they can get to night school. Here in East Anglia most market towns don't have a college, and there are no buses at night. Many villages have really crap broadband (my boss gets dial up speed and has to resort to expensive satellite broadband).
I know this sounds like excuses, but for many, many people this is reality. Not everyone lives in a large urban environment, or has the money to move there.
Yes the odd person can follow your path, but imagine a whole shift of people like yourself, perhaps you'd not be where you are now.......

What do think minimum wage should be?

[spaximus]

Minimun wage is in most cases not all they have to live on with top ups for various things if they qualify. What should the level be. difficult as in London probably £10 elsewhere £7 would seem fine. There has to be a balance between costing jobs and making work pay.
I would peg the benefits for the next few years so the gap between those who work and those who do not grows to the advantage of those in work. There are lots of jobs about. I friends son lost his job which was £25k. He was offered a job on £16k with overtime etc and refused it as he gets more on beneifts than he would clear. He gets free gym membership from the council worth £500 pa, runs a car, has had a holiday abroad his view is why bother?

If the gap widened he would work, he is a fit able lad who is slowly becoming dependant and cannot see the harm it is doing him longterm.

Whatever rate is set people do will always want more.

[S798]

eccles said:

I applaud your sentiments, but Piston heads is full of posts like yours.I would wager that your career progression has a small element of luck, or being in the right place at the right time.
I love the vagueness of your instructions on how to proceed up the ladder 'Some sort of management course', you assume the hardest worker gets rewarded with promotion (not the bosses mate's son).
You assume they can get to night school. Here in East Anglia most market towns don't have a college, and there are no buses at night. Many villages have really crap broadband (my boss gets dial up speed and has to resort to expensive satellite broadband).
I know this sounds like excuses, but for many, many people this is reality. Not everyone lives in a large urban environment, or has the money to move there.
Yes the odd person can follow your path, but imagine a whole shift of people like yourself, perhaps you'd not be where you are now.......

I hear what you're saying and I do understand. My example was deliberately vague as it is a hypothetical example. Many jobs have associated or relevant qualifications that can be completed on the job or outside of jobs. Not living near a town or not having fast broadband is just excuses.

I truly believe that people can progress if they invest the time, energy and sometimes a bit of money in themselves. This may mean some short-term pain for longer term gain mostly through having to cut back in one area or losing some time at evenings or weekends. I work with a lot of young people as part of my role and I often hear all the same excuses trotted out. At the end of the day, they are just that - excuses. If someone really truly wants to achieve more, they will find a way.

I'm far from as successful as many on PH and yes, there has been an element of being in the right place at the right time - but I put myself in that place by taking risks to move companies when I felt comfortable. I knew that sitting in the same comfortable job for years on end was not going to get me where I wanted to go. I'm still reasonably early on in my career - just about to hit 30 - and know I will have to take further risks and do further study to enable me to be the strongest candidate for promotional opportunities in a couple of years. The further up the ladder you are the easiest this becomes, but it still means investing time I'd frankly rather spend with mates or money I'd rather spend on putting fuel in an exciting car.

My take on it is that I'd rather drive a duller car and spend one of my weekend days studying for a year or two if it opens the door for a £10-20k pay rise going forward.

[Thankyou4calling]

spaximus said:

Minimun wage is in most cases not all they have to live on with top ups for various things if they qualify. What should the level be. difficult as in London probably £10 elsewhere £7 would seem fine. There has to be a balance between costing jobs and making work pay.
I would peg the benefits for the next few years so the gap between those who work and those who do not grows to the advantage of those in work. There are lots of jobs about. I friends son lost his job which was £25k. He was offered a job on £16k with overtime etc and refused it as he gets more on beneifts than he would clear. He gets free gym membership from the council worth £500 pa, runs a car, has had a holiday abroad his view is why bother?

If the gap widened he would work, he is a fit able lad who is slowly becoming dependant and cannot see the harm it is doing him longterm.

Whatever rate is set people do will always want more.

I'd be interested to know the detail of ths case. Is he married? Have children? Why does he get free gym membership? Sounds a bit anecdotal to me I'm afraid.