The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
don'tbesilly said:
Is Cameron on a different planet to most, or is he seriously deluded?
I find it quite disgraceful that a British PM has no concern for his citizens and is trying to kid people into thinking that what he considers as 'significant reforms' are nothing of the sort.
He's selling us far short of what's required to make any real change, and there is nothing he's negotiated that is worthy of calling significant/substantial change.
The emergency brake would be vetoed every time he put his foot down, it's a joke, as is the rest!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
David Cameron has said a draft deal on his reform demands delivers the "substantial change" he wants to see to the UK's relationship with the EU.
Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, et al, have zero concern for you. They are only interested in Stakeholders. That group doesn't include you, me or any other individual. It only includes groups of people that have a vested interest in the politics and profits of power. You only have to see how they manage the UK with gleeful abandon as they dish out the privatised goodies to their big business mates and sponsors to realise that you are truly just a number of no meaningful consequence to their ambitions. Just vote no, and then we will see if they have the ability to run a proper sovereign country or not.I find it quite disgraceful that a British PM has no concern for his citizens and is trying to kid people into thinking that what he considers as 'significant reforms' are nothing of the sort.
He's selling us far short of what's required to make any real change, and there is nothing he's negotiated that is worthy of calling significant/substantial change.
The emergency brake would be vetoed every time he put his foot down, it's a joke, as is the rest!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
David Cameron has said a draft deal on his reform demands delivers the "substantial change" he wants to see to the UK's relationship with the EU.
With all the EU excitement I thought I'd copy this here too...
Lest we forget...
I've been re-thinking The Referendum Party over the past weeks and the late, great, Sir James Goldsmith, father of London Mayor candidate, Zac Goldsmith. I wonder how many of you really remember the period of 1994-1997 when Goldsmith was causing havoc with British and European politicians...clearly stating how destructive is the European Federation...and to think it's taken 18-20 years for the British people to finally get their say and to finally have an open democratic referendum. This and the other Goldsmith and Referendum videos are worth watching, if only to prove the utter bulls
t we/the UK have had to swallow during this period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSXdE8M-9Y4
Lest we forget...
I've been re-thinking The Referendum Party over the past weeks and the late, great, Sir James Goldsmith, father of London Mayor candidate, Zac Goldsmith. I wonder how many of you really remember the period of 1994-1997 when Goldsmith was causing havoc with British and European politicians...clearly stating how destructive is the European Federation...and to think it's taken 18-20 years for the British people to finally get their say and to finally have an open democratic referendum. This and the other Goldsmith and Referendum videos are worth watching, if only to prove the utter bulls
t we/the UK have had to swallow during this period.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSXdE8M-9Y4
Conceptually a Greater Europe is a great idea and I hate xenophoic 'little Englanding' (especially from ex pats) but I think the project is increasingly a failure due to the disparity between countries and is a particular burden on the UK. I think it was the PM of Poland kicking off if we were to restrict benefits for people that haven't paid a penny in tax here yet or contributed towards funding the NHS here finally changed my mind. I've also heard a lot of quotes recently from health professionals and learnt of all sorts of other burdensome shenanigans going on. Taxes are a constant so something is contributing to the less for more feeling. It feels wrong to be insular and against the project but its all a bit of a mess and yes we do need to put ourselves first as no one else will!
Ken Figenus said:
Conceptually a Greater Europe is a great idea and I hate xenophoic 'little Englanding' (especially from ex pats) but I think the project is increasingly a failure due to the disparity between countries and is a particular burden on the UK. I think it was the PM of Poland kicking off if we were to restrict benefits for people that haven't paid a penny in tax here yet or contributed towards funding the NHS here finally changed my mind. I've also heard a lot of quotes recently from health professionals and learnt of all sorts of other burdensome shenanigans going on. Taxes are a constant so something is contributing to the less for more feeling. It feels wrong to be insular and against the project but its all a bit of a mess and yes we do need to put ourselves first as no one else will!
This sums it up perfectly for me. Ken Figenus said:
Conceptually a Greater Europe is a great idea and I hate xenophoic 'little Englanding' (especially from ex pats) but I think the project is increasingly a failure due to the disparity between countries and is a particular burden on the UK. I think it was the PM of Poland kicking off if we were to restrict benefits for people that haven't paid a penny in tax here yet or contributed towards funding the NHS here finally changed my mind. I've also heard a lot of quotes recently from health professionals and learnt of all sorts of other burdensome shenanigans going on. Taxes are a constant so something is contributing to the less for more feeling. It feels wrong to be insular and against the project but its all a bit of a mess and yes we do need to put ourselves first as no one else will!
There is nothing 'insular' about wanting to trade with the world, rather than from within a protectionist EU. The opposite is true.KrissKross said:
spaximus said:
From many business men I have spoken with they all want to stay in the EU fearful of being unable to deal directly after a Brexit.
Haha total nonsense, what "business men" have you spoken to?I own a business, my colleagues own businesses, my business associates in Holland, Germany, France all want out (note I didn't say Greece or Poland)
We don't need to be told how to trade with each other by political children who have no clue about business!!
My thoughts are we signed up for a trade partnership, we did not sign up to an expansionist super state which we are the second largest contributor to or to hand over our rights to others.
It will be interesting
spaximus said:
Quite a few with very large business interests. That is going to be the issue, some have prospered under the EU. Increase regulations have squeezed some out leaving the big boys to make hay. I personally do not see that we could not exist outside and trade with who ever we want. The vested interest people have the most money to throw at the IN campaign and have may top name business people who support being in. I have already had two different leaflets supporting staying in, none from the out campaign. Who of stature is saying out? UKIP, Dr Fox and Chris Grayling, who are not big hitters are the only names I have heard of.
My thoughts are we signed up for a trade partnership, we did not sign up to an expansionist super state which we are the second largest contributor to or to hand over our rights to others.
It will be interesting
I think (hope) the big hitters have been silenced by Cameron while he tries his pathetic negotiation to convince everyone that he has won a great victory while achieving absolutely nothing in practice. They may "come out" shortly but only in the hope that they are not buggered when it comes to promotion.My thoughts are we signed up for a trade partnership, we did not sign up to an expansionist super state which we are the second largest contributor to or to hand over our rights to others.
It will be interesting
I cannot see the harm in voting to leave, even if you are unsure or even if you want to remain. It is important to do so just to send the right message to the EU. In fact if there was a vote to leave there would be two years of negotiations about how to leave followed by another three years of details and by that time all the MPs will have changed and they will have to do it all over again. Then there will be a series of legal challenges on the legality of it all and it will end up as an almighty fudge and things will be much the same in the year 2025 as they are today and they will have taken my driving licence away and I shall be too old to care!
Edited by Vanin on Wednesday 3rd February 07:02
Edited by Vanin on Wednesday 3rd February 07:03
Guybrush said:
As we get closer to the day of the vote, we are going to get all sorts of BS last minute 'miracle' deals in an attempt to fool the uncertain / slightly frightened into voting to stay in.
Most definately, there will be some frantic late night negotiations to "win" something extra. All carefully pre-agreed of course.He's still on the same game plan that Wilson used in 75, more or less.
Worthless negotiations to keep the opposition on the back foot and little time to form the final arguments. Check.
Alienate and threaten any waverers in his own party. Check
Ensure that his side will get far more funding than the other side. Check
Keep the final campaign short, further ensuring that the opposition has less time to organise. Possible but as yet unknown.
Ensure media is on his side. Some big hitters eg BBC check, but Cameron's not done as well as Wilson where only the Morning Star was against.
Rely on British public doing as they are told and voting for whatever Govt recommends. Wait and see, but that will come to pass, depressingly.
Finally Lie Lie and just for good measure lie again. Check
Worthless negotiations to keep the opposition on the back foot and little time to form the final arguments. Check.
Alienate and threaten any waverers in his own party. Check
Ensure that his side will get far more funding than the other side. Check
Keep the final campaign short, further ensuring that the opposition has less time to organise. Possible but as yet unknown.
Ensure media is on his side. Some big hitters eg BBC check, but Cameron's not done as well as Wilson where only the Morning Star was against.
Rely on British public doing as they are told and voting for whatever Govt recommends. Wait and see, but that will come to pass, depressingly.
Finally Lie Lie and just for good measure lie again. Check
cloggy said:
I feel fking cheated, I have been in the UK for 34 years paid all my taxes, never took a penny out of social services, bought my own houses, paid for private education for my kids etc.
My wife is British my children still have Dutch passports, my grand children are British (3), I still can't vote for parliament or now the EU referendum (I and my children want OUT).
WHY???? I don't want to apply for a British passport, although I can, why should I? We are all so called European.
Any Irish (travelers) can vote and many Pakistanis, why cant I ?
If it's any consolation, my missus is Dutch and she wants to vote in... but can't because she's Dutch! So just assume you cancel each other out! king cheated, I have been in the UK for 34 years paid all my taxes, never took a penny out of social services, bought my own houses, paid for private education for my kids etc.My wife is British my children still have Dutch passports, my grand children are British (3), I still can't vote for parliament or now the EU referendum (I and my children want OUT).
WHY???? I don't want to apply for a British passport, although I can, why should I? We are all so called European.
Any Irish
(travelers) can vote and many Pakistanis, why cant I ? Hup hup!!
cloggy said:
I feel fking cheated, I have been in the UK for 34 years paid all my taxes, never took a penny out of social services, bought my own houses, paid for private education for my kids etc.
My wife is British my children still have Dutch passports, my grand children are British (3), I still can't vote for parliament or now the EU referendum (I and my children want OUT).
WHY???? I don't want to apply for a British passport, although I can, why should I? We are all so called European.
Any Irish (travelers) can vote and many Pakistanis, why cant I ?
I don't think foreign nationals should be allowed to vote on important matters like this referendum. Your last line says quite a lot.king cheated, I have been in the UK for 34 years paid all my taxes, never took a penny out of social services, bought my own houses, paid for private education for my kids etc.My wife is British my children still have Dutch passports, my grand children are British (3), I still can't vote for parliament or now the EU referendum (I and my children want OUT).
WHY???? I don't want to apply for a British passport, although I can, why should I? We are all so called European.
Any Irish
(travelers) can vote and many Pakistanis, why cant I ? Esseesse said:
FiF said:
He's still...
So what we have over 1975 is possibly less trust in politicians, and the internet, and the more clear effects of being in the EU.It needs a good rebuttal unit, armed with the facts and pushing the detailed exit plan, as complicated as that has to be. Suspect a lot of the public don't have the wit or the patience to really understand the base really important issues, not immigration but sovereignty.
FiF said:
Esseesse said:
FiF said:
He's still...
So what we have over 1975 is possibly less trust in politicians, and the internet, and the more clear effects of being in the EU.It needs a good rebuttal unit, armed with the facts and pushing the detailed exit plan, as complicated as that has to be. Suspect a lot of the public don't have the wit or the patience to really understand the base really important issues, not immigration but sovereignty.
Those who have no option but to stay put 24/7/365 and slog on who then vote 'In' will get what they deserve if CMD manages to con enough people.
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