Who will be the new Labour leader?

[turbobloke]

From the national Schools Admissions Code which all schools must follow - test score even wins out over what would otherwise be priority criteria:

"Where arrangements for pupils are wholly based on selection by reference to ability and provide for only those pupils who score highest in any selection test to be admitted, no priority needs to be given to looked after children or previously looked after children."

There are outlier oversubscription criteria for a few grammar schools that look beyond test scores but in any area where the schools are oversubscribed it's a matter of scores on the doors pretty much everywhere.

Also for non-selective schools using catchment: "Catchment areas must be designed so that they are reasonable and clearly defined. Catchment areas do not prevent parents who live outside the catchment of a particular school from expressing a preference for the school."

So even there, being outside a catchment area doesn't prevent applications or guarantee refusal.

[turbobloke]

Andy Zarse said:

I only mentioned location in reference to Julian's comment about parents renting houses near a school to trick the system.

Quite so. That does happen, for sought-after Ofsted Outstanding academies or maintained community schools with that distance factor in their oversubscription criteria, parents do buy or rent to get within the distance. In the case of several sought-after London primary schools the distance to be successful all other things being equal gets down to between 400 and 200 metres.

A good local school can add over £20k to local property prices due to the increased demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/26/good-...

Jeremy Corbyn may not be tempted

[turbobloke]

Take a look at the Beaconsfield Effect in that link

[Andy Zarse]

turbobloke said:

Andy Zarse said:

I only mentioned location in reference to Julian's comment about parents renting houses near a school to trick the system.

Quite so. That does happen, for sought-after Ofsted Outstanding academies or maintained community schools with that distance factor in their oversubscription criteria, parents do buy or rent to get within the distance. In the case of several sought-after London primary schools the distance to be successful all other things being equal gets down to between 400 and 200 metres.

A good local school can add over £20k to local property prices due to the increased demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/26/good-...

Jeremy Corbyn may not be tempted

Here's the Determined Places criteria of my (and Jeremy's) old school, it shows how rules may be "bent" to accommodate some children, in theory at least:

http://www.adamsgs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/...

Incidentally TB, and I thought you'd appreciate this one, I recently saw a letter in the Telegraph from Corbyn's old English teacher. He must be about a ninety nine by now, but clearly still has his wits about him. Imagine writing to the Telegraph letters editor thus, as if it's the most obvious thing in the world:

Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy" – an echo of the theme of memento mori that occurs widely in inscriptions from the Middle Ages: Quod es, eram; quod sum, eris –"What you are, I was; what I am, you will be". The Latin verse (as printed), appears to have little meaning and the translation given in the report is sheer nonsense, but if "e" is added to the twice occurring optima, converting it into the genitive case agreeing with uxoris and sororis, as Optimae Uxoris Optimae Sororis Viduus Amantissimus Vovit Virtutibus, it becomes perfectly intelligible - "A devoted widower dedicated (this monument) to the virtues of (one who was) the best of wives and best of sisters". Lynton Seymour-Whiteley, Bridgehampton, Somerset

This is the calibre of education Corbyn received, tedious though it may have been for some of us, and is why so his slovenly demeanour irks me so. Still I suspect we'll be writing Jeremy's political memento mori soon enough and "I too was (once) happy" sounds about right.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Wednesday 9th September 10:47

[turbobloke]

Andy Zarse said:

turbobloke said:

Andy Zarse said:

I only mentioned location in reference to Julian's comment about parents renting houses near a school to trick the system.

Quite so. That does happen, for sought-after Ofsted Outstanding academies or maintained community schools with that distance factor in their oversubscription criteria, parents do buy or rent to get within the distance. In the case of several sought-after London primary schools the distance to be successful all other things being equal gets down to between 400 and 200 metres.

A good local school can add over £20k to local property prices due to the increased demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/26/good-...

Jeremy Corbyn may not be tempted

Here's the Determined Places criteria of my (and Jeremy's) old school, it shows how rules may be "bent" to accommodate some children, in theory at least:

http://www.adamsgs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/...

Incidentally TB, and I thought you'd appreciate this one, I recently saw a letter in the Telegraph from Corbyn's old English teacher. He must be about a ninety nine by now, but clearly still has his wits about him. Imagine writing to the Telegraph letter's editor thus, as if it's the most obvious thing in the world:

[I]Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy" – an echo of the theme of memento mori that occurs widely in inscriptions from the Middle Ages: Quod es, eram; quod sum, eris –"What you are, I was; what I am, you will be". The Latin verse (as printed), appears to have little meaning and the translation given in the report is sheer nonsense, but if "e" is added to the twice occurring optima, converting it into the genitive case agreeing with uxoris and sororis, as Optimae Uxoris Optimae Sororis Viduus Amantissimus Vovit Virtutibus, it becomes perfectly intelligible - "A devoted widower dedicated (this monument) to the virtues of (one who was) the best of wives and best of sisters".
Lynton Seymour-Whiteley, Bridgehampton, Somerset[/I]

This is the calibre of education Corbyn received, tedious though it may have been for some of us, and is why so his slovenly demeanour irks me so. Still I suspect we'll be writing Jeremy's political memento mori soon enough and "I too was (once) happy" sounds about right.

Thanks for that; blimey. My Latin O-level just ran away and hid.

[Alex]

Andy Zarse said:

Here's the Determined Places criteria of my (and Jeremy's) old school, it shows how rules may be "bent" to accommodate some children, in theory at least:

http://www.adamsgs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/...

Incidentally TB, and I thought you'd appreciate this one, I recently saw a letter in the Telegraph from Corbyn's old English teacher. He must be about a ninety nine by now, but clearly still has his wits about him. Imagine writing to the Telegraph letters editor thus, as if it's the most obvious thing in the world:

Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy" – an echo of the theme of memento mori that occurs widely in inscriptions from the Middle Ages: Quod es, eram; quod sum, eris –"What you are, I was; what I am, you will be". The Latin verse (as printed), appears to have little meaning and the translation given in the report is sheer nonsense, but if "e" is added to the twice occurring optima, converting it into the genitive case agreeing with uxoris and sororis, as Optimae Uxoris Optimae Sororis Viduus Amantissimus Vovit Virtutibus, it becomes perfectly intelligible - "A devoted widower dedicated (this monument) to the virtues of (one who was) the best of wives and best of sisters". Lynton Seymour-Whiteley, Bridgehampton, Somerset

This is the calibre of education Corbyn received, tedious though it may have been for some of us, and is why so his slovenly demeanour irks me so. Still I suspect we'll be writing Jeremy's political memento mori soon enough and "I too was (once) happy" sounds about right.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Wednesday 9th September 10:47

"... it becomes perfectly intelligible"

Love that.

[Alex]

turbobloke said:

Thanks for that; blimey. My Latin O-level just ran away and hid.

I got a 'U' in Latin O-Level. Didn't bother retaking it...

[crankedup]

Andy Zarse said:

crankedup said:

Interesting that Corbyn is a 'down to earth' presenter of politics which is completely the opposite of what modern politics has become, shiney suits and bullste.
Looking forward to seeing him perform at P.M. Questions, bring some reality into the event maybe.

Personally I like people who look like statesmen/women and have some pride in their appearance. I feel it adds gravitas. Vests and biros and Weetabix crumbs in the beard don't do it for me I'm afraid. Still each to their own.

The problem with Jezbollah is he hasn't ever had to be responsible for anything he's ever said or done. And the man is a born equivocator. He didn't even have the balls yesterday to quiz Cameron about the death of his "friends" in ISIS. No doubt he thought it was "a tragedy upon a tragedy upon a tragedy upon a tragedy" (I think he's up to four tragedies at the current count).

You see he will have a new and previously untrod line between currying favour with his sycophants and not becoming a laughing stock to the other 95% of the population. Thus I think being Leader of the Opposition is well beyond his pay scale and it will be a complete misery for him.

Can't disagree, 30+ years as a back bench maverick and now thrust into the mainstream public gaze, he makes it look easy. That's down to the bloke having not changed his tune, he tells it like it is for him, his politics. No dressing it up, no lies that I know of, no conformity to the left of centre blah blah. Be weird if he did alter and immediately we would identify him as just another polished turd.
Not saying I agree with his politics or his style of presentation, but I do find it refreshing and interesting. Looking forward to his time on the opposition front bench if only to bring some much needed honesty.

[Stickyfinger]

crankedup said:

but I do find it refreshing and interesting. Looking forward to his time on the opposition front bench if only to bring some much needed honesty.

some much needed === hilarity

Corrected the last bit for you

[tim0409]

I'm not normally a betting man but I've just put £10 on Yvette Cooper at 8/1; my reasoning is that I think the JC thing might have been overplayed by the media and that common sense prevails. However, as a Tory, if he wins the loss of the £10 will be more than made up by the entertainment value of the first PMQ's.

[Zod]

Andy Zarse said:

[I]Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy"

That's not what means - it is supposed to be Death saying, "Even in Arcadia, I am here".

[julian64]

turbobloke said:

Far be it for me to suggest a misunderstanding, but there may be one operating here... A grammar school will do no more and no less than work down the list of scores up to its admissions number, and an oversubscribed school will reach that cut-off point while still well above the 'pass' score.

There's no location location location involved like there is for non-selective academies and community schools where oversubscription criteria include such factors as distance of the home from the school, siblings at the school and so on.

No misunderstanding oldest child got 142 which was the top mark for the 11+ and went to Judd school which pretty much only accepts top score
The youngest got 138, which was far higher than the average for the intake at Dartford that year which was 128. He saw a few of his friends going in with scores of 130 and 129 because they were just within the area as opposed to just without.

The explanation given to us by one of the school governers and reiterated by the appeal was that we were just outside their catchment, and that although they fully accepted there was no grammar school within our catchment it wasn't their problem.

This was three years ago so maybe things have changed for the better. It didn't directly affect my son apart from his pride as we paid for a private school for the last four years. but if someone is going to say that kent is a utopia for state education, or that every child in this country gets their place based solely on achievement I would have to say bks.

[turbobloke]

julian64 said:

turbobloke said:

Far be it for me to suggest a misunderstanding, but there may be one operating here... A grammar school will do no more and no less than work down the list of scores up to its admissions number, and an oversubscribed school will reach that cut-off point while still well above the 'pass' score.

There's no location location location involved like there is for non-selective academies and community schools where oversubscription criteria include such factors as distance of the home from the school, siblings at the school and so on.

No misunderstanding oldest child got 142 which was the top mark for the 11+ and went to Judd school which pretty much only accepts top score
The youngest got 138, which was far higher than the average for the intake at Dartford that year which was 128. He saw a few of his friends going in with scores of 130 and 129 because they were just within the area as opposed to just without.

OK but the others hardly "failed" and it looks like you experienced one of the relatively small number of outlier schools which apply other criteria alongside scores. Nornally 120+ or thereabouts is a 'pass' but it doesn't guarantee admission as we both know.

julian64 said:

The explanation given to us by one of the school governers and reiterated by the appeal was that we were just outside their catchment, and that although they fully accepted there was no grammar school within our catchment it wasn't their problem.

As above, it's unfortunate and for a third time you have my sympathies but those who got in hardly failed, unless you have the relevant Admissions Policy then I would say that anything over 120 is likely to be seen as above the threshold by a typical grammar school and then beyonmd that if they are one of the few that apply other criteria then it really does get tough. We're both assumning that the school and its admissions procedure and the appeals panel all followed due process, which is very likely to be the case but never 100% certain due more to lacking detailed awareness than any deliberate misdeed.

I've been a governor at a massively oversubscribed grammar school and sat on their admissions appeals panel for several years, in both instances I was able to prevent anything untoward happening by ensuring that due process was followed.

julian64 said:

This was three years ago so maybe things have changed for the better. It didn't directly affect my son apart from his pride as we paid for a private school for the last four years. but if someone is going to say that kent is a utopia for state education, or that every child in this country gets their place based solely on achievement I would have to say bks.

Other parts of the country have families in the same boat for one reason or another, including Cheltenhamshire with only one grammar school, though as posted earlier many local parents know about the Harry Potter factor (Gloucester). Which doesn't help at all I appreciate that.

[Saddle bum]

Zod said:

Andy Zarse said:

[I]Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy"

That's not what means - it is supposed to be Death saying, "Even in Arcadia, I am here".

In politics: Semper primo precutis ictu primo seems more appropriate.

Always get you blow in first........................

[iphonedyou]

crankedup said:

Looking forward to seeing him perform at P.M. Questions

So, as a Conservative supporter, am I.

Very much looking forward to it in fact.

[Gargamel]

Of all the derogatory bdized nickames for politicians we see on this site. B.liar, Cam moron, Winky etc I do particularly like Jezbollah - always makes me smile.

So for that reason, I hope he gets it.

[turbobloke]

Saddle bum said:

Zod said:

Andy Zarse said:

[I]Sir – Poussin's painting shows a tomb with the sad title Et in Arcadia ego – "I too was (once) happy"

That's not what means - it is supposed to be Death saying, "Even in Arcadia, I am here".

In politics: Semper primo precutis ictu primo seems more appropriate.

Always get you blow in first........................

Nice! Wasn't the St Trinians school mottp 'Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo'?

Zod's version is what I had understood it to be i.e. death is even present in Arcady, but we may allow for the fact that it has been interpreted (beyond translated) in various ways across the ages.

[julian64]

turbobloke said:

Other parts of the country have families in the same boat for one reason or another, including Cheltenhamshire with only one grammar school, though as posted earlier many local parents know about the Harry Potter factor (Gloucester). Which doesn't help at all I appreciate that.

Not wanting to completely hijack the thread so I'll make this my last post. I have a lot of sympathy for those who found themselves in the middle of the system, and realise that a pass may well be seen as a pass above a certain threshold and not looked into any further. but its fairly cold comfort for my son who had an 11+ grade far higher than the average at Dartford. Its not for an online forum but I can tell you I have knowledge of two children in that year who gained entry with 'fail' grades because of compelling social reasons. For obvious reasons I won't go into detail.

So from my personal experience I can tell you that the admissions is not simply a number threshold exercise of the brightest and best. And what most parents suspect when they've been through the system is that it IS worth renting a flat or manipulating the flawed system because that seems to work when common sense doesn't. Its a shame, but I don't think its going to change anytime soon.

You'd have my full support for obvious reasons if you did make it a simple number exercise

[turbobloke]

julian64 said:

turbobloke said:

Other parts of the country have families in the same boat for one reason or another, including Cheltenhamshire with only one grammar school, though as posted earlier many local parents know about the Harry Potter factor (Gloucester). Which doesn't help at all I appreciate that.

Not wanting to completely hijack the thread so I'll make this my last post. I have a lot of sympathy for those who found themselves in the middle of the system, and realise that a pass may well be seen as a pass above a certain threshold and not looked into any further. but its fairly cold comfort for my son who had an 11+ grade far higher than the average at Dartford. Its not for an online forum but I can tell you I have knowledge of two children in that year who gained entry with 'fail' grades because of compelling social reasons. For obvious reasons I won't go into detail.

So from my personal experience I can tell you that the admissions is not simply a number threshold exercise of the brightest and best. And what most parents suspect when they've been through the system is that it IS worth renting a flat or manipulating the flawed system because that seems to work when common sense doesn't. Its a shame, but I don't think its going to change anytime soon.

You'd have my full support for obvious reasons if you did make it a simple number exercise

Yes understood and I'm confident we are in agreement, including over the last post so to speak.

[Halb]

Anyone watching Daily Politics?

Harriet Harriman signing off with a nice snipe in a retort to Brillo pad, '...I'm not old enough or posh enough to be running for the leadership in this election...'