Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
tangerine_sedge said:
turbobloke said:
Labour has made itself the Party fixated on independent education, their ideas will fix nothing worthwhile but the law of unintended consequences is waiting for them as usual.
The only people fixated on this are the usual blow-hards on PH, literally no one outside of PH is talking about this.We could be talking about the number of teachers leaving state education every day (newly qualified teachers leaving after a couple of years and going to work in Aldi because they're paid better), or the recent announcement by SKS to replace those teachers and re-invigorate state education, but PH seems fixated on a relatively small number of people having to pay appropriate taxes.
I suspect it’s just a small bubble of people that think it’s a bigger deal than it is. Hardly anyone cares. This issue is focused in one area, where there are a lot of private schools. Its a southern provincial issue, outside that in the rest of the country where there's far fewer private schools it's a non issue.
Let's see how many election flyers, adverts, campaign speeches feature this issue.
Let's see how many election flyers, adverts, campaign speeches feature this issue.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: It's the people you'd expect who seem unable to show empathy for anyone struggling because that would be "emotive" but suddenly when it's VAT on school fees they're practically crying with rage at those poor poor people.
Imagine my surprise.
The real issue here isn't the relatively small handful of people facing increased fees, it's the way that state education has been damaged by years of under-funding. Demoralised and underpaid teachers, buildings falling apart and the increase in the use of TAs instead of actual teachers.Imagine my surprise.
tangerine_sedge said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: It's the people you'd expect who seem unable to show empathy for anyone struggling because that would be "emotive" but suddenly when it's VAT on school fees they're practically crying with rage at those poor poor people.
Imagine my surprise.
The real issue here isn't the relatively small handful of people facing increased fees, it's the way that state education has been damaged by years of under-funding. Demoralised and underpaid teachers, buildings falling apart and the increase in the use of TAs instead of actual teachers.Imagine my surprise.
The underlying point about VAT on PE is that its by far from guaranteed to achieve a positive outcome in any sphere (and if it does the gains will be marginal at the cost of unnecessary disruption and likely increased pressures in the state system).
It's therefore a stupid policy to even be thinking about as a priority if your objective is to "fix the country".
If it's indicative of what we can expect from a Labour government then we aren't going to get very far.
Just as you can rave about how it affects very few people (but actually the effects may well be felt on a much wider basis than that), so it's being argued that it's going to achieve very little that's positive either...and may well not be that good.
So what's the point of doing it?
Edited by Wombat3 on Sunday 19th May 09:55
tangerine_sedge said:
turbobloke said:
Labour has made itself the Party fixated on independent education, their ideas will fix nothing worthwhile but the law of unintended consequences is waiting for them as usual.
The only people fixated on this are the usual blow-hards on PH, literally no one outside of PH is talking about this.We could be talking about the number of teachers leaving state education every day (newly qualified teachers leaving after a couple of years and going to work in Aldi because they're paid better), or the recent announcement by SKS to replace those teachers and re-invigorate state education, but PH seems fixated on a relatively small number of people having to pay appropriate taxes.
Why is VAT on one particular type of education an appropriate tax? Surely it should apply to all education or none.
Why not apply it to universities as well? It would generate much more cash for state education. People that go to uni will earn more then those that don't so why should that advantage still bet a tax break?
You only have to look at the voting intentions of students to see why!
98elise said:
Why is VAT on one particular type of education an appropriate tax? Surely it should apply to all education or none.
Because private education is a an optional choice because you’ve got more money than everyone else. State education is not. 98elise said:
Why not apply it to universities as well? It would generate much more cash for state education. People that go to uni will earn more than those that don't so why should that advantage still bet a tax break?
It probably should. My opinion is that the university sector is bloated and broken anyway, shrinking it down a bit probably wouldn’t be the worst thing but it’s a massive political landmine to tread on as it looks like you’ve limiting education options. Back on Kier, his appearance on Sunday Kitchen seems to be going a lot better than Rishis car crash on Loose Women. Coming across well.
You only have to look at the voting intentions of students to see why!
MiniMan64 said:
98elise said:
Why is VAT on one particular type of education an appropriate tax? Surely it should apply to all education or none.
Because private education is a an optional choice because you’ve got more money than everyone else. State education is not. 98elise said:
Why not apply it to universities as well? It would generate much more cash for state education. People that go to uni will earn more than those that don't so why should that advantage still bet a tax break?
It probably should. My opinion is that the university sector is bloated and broken anyway, shrinking it down a bit probably wouldn’t be the worst thing but it’s a massive political landmine to tread on as it looks like you’ve limiting education options. Back on Kier, his appearance on Sunday Kitchen seems to be going a lot better than Rishis car crash on Loose Women. Coming across well.
You only have to look at the voting intentions of students to see why!
I didnt see all of it so i must have missed something juicy!
[
Sounds like Labour style envy. Probably not though. University is an optional choice, why not tax that down to Labour's equality-in-mediocrity' mantra? Optional choice doesn't really cut it as a reason, it's about placating Labour's rumpies who blame that rich person over there for their own situation.
BTW it requires more money allied to more sense, but not necessarily more money than "everyone else".
MiniMan64 said:
98elise said:
Why is VAT on one particular type of education an appropriate tax? Surely it should apply to all education or none.
Because private education is a an optional choice because you’ve got more money than everyone else. State education is not. BTW it requires more money allied to more sense, but not necessarily more money than "everyone else".
MiniMan64 said:
It was all sound bites, repeated practiced answers and ignoring the question. My view and I’m sure it’s won’t be shared by some here, is that Kier came across as a much more honest personable blown this morning.
Having him cook live on Sunday Brunch while answering questions seemed like a lot to ask of anyone, people are so used to seeing polished TV chefs with presenting experience do this kind of thing and expect it be slick... and it usually is thanks to lots of experience and rehearsals. Anything he does now is going to be scrutinised and used against him and, while I thought he did a perfectly decent job of things, others will see "bumbling" or question if a wand blender was the best tool to use or that he couldn't open the oven immediately (most people would have struggled, I didn't even know you could get ovens with doors that opened at the touch of a button) and then turn that into him being unfit to run the country because he makes bad choices and needed help from others to deliver the end result. Even the suggestion he eats salmon and isn't just hoovering up dust from passing buses will no doubt be twisted as "elitist" by some outlets.
But the discussions all came across like a normal bloke just hoping he can make things better without promising the moon on a stick within a week of being elected and it's that kind of honesty, and general changes in honesty, standards and respect generally, that we'd all benefit from now surely?
thetapeworm said:
MiniMan64 said:
It was all sound bites, repeated practiced answers and ignoring the question. My view and I’m sure it’s won’t be shared by some here, is that Kier came across as a much more honest personable blown this morning.
Having him cook live on Sunday Brunch while answering questions seemed like a lot to ask of anyone, people are so used to seeing polished TV chefs with presenting experience do this kind of thing and expect it be slick... and it usually is thanks to lots of experience and rehearsals. Anything he does now is going to be scrutinised and used against him and, while I thought he did a perfectly decent job of things, others will see "bumbling" or question if a wand blender was the best tool to use or that he couldn't open the oven immediately (most people would have struggled, I didn't even know you could get ovens with doors that opened at the touch of a button) and then turn that into him being unfit to run the country because he makes bad choices and needed help from others to deliver the end result. Even the suggestion he eats salmon and isn't just hoovering up dust from passing buses will no doubt be twisted as "elitist" by some outlets.
But the discussions all came across like a normal bloke just hoping he can make things better without promising the moon on a stick within a week of being elected and it's that kind of honesty, and general changes in honesty, standards and respect generally, that we'd all benefit from now surely?
Some look more out of touch than others by doing it.
NerveAgent said:
tangerine_sedge said:
turbobloke said:
Labour has made itself the Party fixated on independent education, their ideas will fix nothing worthwhile but the law of unintended consequences is waiting for them as usual.
The only people fixated on this are the usual blow-hards on PH, literally no one outside of PH is talking about this.We could be talking about the number of teachers leaving state education every day (newly qualified teachers leaving after a couple of years and going to work in Aldi because they're paid better), or the recent announcement by SKS to replace those teachers and re-invigorate state education, but PH seems fixated on a relatively small number of people having to pay appropriate taxes.
I suspect it’s just a small bubble of people that think it’s a bigger deal than it is. Hardly anyone cares. Very few people will be aware of the intention to add tax to school fees and even fewer will care.
If somebody chooses to spend £10,000s per year on school fees -as they believe that it will give their children an advantage in life-, then they cannot reasonably expect the school to be considered wholly a charity. The suggestion that it is a philanthropic gesture to free-up state school places for the less fortunate is cringe-worthy.
If people are struggling/"scrimping and saving" to find the fees, I would suggest that they have a good think about their priorities and whether or not it was really worth it (especially for a school that is not attended by the offspring of the world's monarchs and oligarchs, at which great contacts might be made).
It is somewhat amusing that some people on here believe that it is almost the only differentiator between The Tories and Labour.
Get a grip and move along.
MC Bodge said:
I have made this point myself a number of times.
Very few people will be aware of the intention to add tax to school fees and even fewer will care.
If somebody chooses to spend £10,000s per year on school fees -as they believe that it will give their children an advantage in life-, then they cannot reasonably expect the school to be considered wholly a charity. The suggestion that it is a philanthropic gesture to free-up state school places for the less fortunate is cringe-worthy.
If people are struggling/"scrimping and saving" to find the fees, I would suggest that they have a good think about their priorities and whether or not it was really worth it (especially for a school that is not attended by the offspring of the world's monarchs and oligarchs, at which great contacts might be made).
It is somewhat amusing that some people on here believe that it is almost the only differentiator between The Tories and Labour.
Get a grip and move along.
People who struggle to make the fees are the ones who have already set their priorities in favour of getting the best education they can for their kids rather than spanking new Range Rovers and holibobs in Barbidross. It's a lot of money, nobody does it if they don't find value in it.Very few people will be aware of the intention to add tax to school fees and even fewer will care.
If somebody chooses to spend £10,000s per year on school fees -as they believe that it will give their children an advantage in life-, then they cannot reasonably expect the school to be considered wholly a charity. The suggestion that it is a philanthropic gesture to free-up state school places for the less fortunate is cringe-worthy.
If people are struggling/"scrimping and saving" to find the fees, I would suggest that they have a good think about their priorities and whether or not it was really worth it (especially for a school that is not attended by the offspring of the world's monarchs and oligarchs, at which great contacts might be made).
It is somewhat amusing that some people on here believe that it is almost the only differentiator between The Tories and Labour.
Get a grip and move along.
VAT exemption for education is just there and always has been. Doesn't make it wrong. This is just the imposition of a tax to try and stop people using it..which will actually just make it more elitist, raise little money and disrupt the education of an unknown number of children.
Pareto ie the 80: 20 rule is what should be front and centre....80% of results come from 20% of your actions. This should not even be looked at before the last 5%, never mind in the first 20%
Wombat3 said:
MC Bodge said:
I have made this point myself a number of times.
Very few people will be aware of the intention to add tax to school fees and even fewer will care.
If somebody chooses to spend £10,000s per year on school fees -as they believe that it will give their children an advantage in life-, then they cannot reasonably expect the school to be considered wholly a charity. The suggestion that it is a philanthropic gesture to free-up state school places for the less fortunate is cringe-worthy.
If people are struggling/"scrimping and saving" to find the fees, I would suggest that they have a good think about their priorities and whether or not it was really worth it (especially for a school that is not attended by the offspring of the world's monarchs and oligarchs, at which great contacts might be made).
It is somewhat amusing that some people on here believe that it is almost the only differentiator between The Tories and Labour.
Get a grip and move along.
People who struggle to make the fees are the ones who have already set their priorities in favour of getting the best education they can for their kids rather than spanking new Range Rovers and holibobs in Barbidross. It's a lot of money, nobody does it if they don't find value in it.Very few people will be aware of the intention to add tax to school fees and even fewer will care.
If somebody chooses to spend £10,000s per year on school fees -as they believe that it will give their children an advantage in life-, then they cannot reasonably expect the school to be considered wholly a charity. The suggestion that it is a philanthropic gesture to free-up state school places for the less fortunate is cringe-worthy.
If people are struggling/"scrimping and saving" to find the fees, I would suggest that they have a good think about their priorities and whether or not it was really worth it (especially for a school that is not attended by the offspring of the world's monarchs and oligarchs, at which great contacts might be made).
It is somewhat amusing that some people on here believe that it is almost the only differentiator between The Tories and Labour.
Get a grip and move along.
VAT exemption for education is just there and always has been. Doesn't make it wrong. This is just the imposition of a tax to try and stop people using it..which will actually just make it more elitist, raise little money and disrupt the education of an unknown number of children.
Pareto ie the 80: 20 rule is what should be front and centre....80% of results come from 20% of your actions. This should not even be looked at before the last 5%, never mind in the first 20%
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