Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
sparkythecat said:
Dracoro said:
Quite simple, have a 4/6 hour return limit, or free between 9.30 and 5pm etc...
They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.
Yes but if it's free, where's the revenue going to come from to police it?They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.
Digga said:
sparkythecat said:
Dracoro said:
Quite simple, have a 4/6 hour return limit, or free between 9.30 and 5pm etc...
They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.
Yes but if it's free, where's the revenue going to come from to police it?They do similar with roads near stations to prevent commuters parking in residential areas.
Fines for other parking offences - on junctions, crossings, double-yellows etc.
Failing that, fire some useless overheads from the council. Seriously.
8am-6pm, pretty-much all car parking spaces are free to park in for two hours. Any more than that and you have to buy a ticket, but it's a bustling market town with loads of interesting little independent shops, and realistically two hours is all you need.
It's always busy, there are no boarded-up shops and even the sorts of places that struggle elsewhere (including an excellent number of bookshops who'll get things in for you free of charge if they don't have them on their shelves) seem to be thriving. Nearly everything is independently owned. Even the small cinema.
Point is, nearly everyone comes by car, doesn't have to pay to park, if they later decide to stay a little longer they can go back to their car and buy a ticket without having to move it. And even then the parking isn't extortionate - an extra £1.40 for an extra hour to make it three hours, during which you can have a meal in a very nice restaurant.
I don't know precisely how the town council organises things, but they certainly seem to know what they're doing. The people driving to Stamford could very easily drive to a nearby out-of-town mall like Serpentine Green just down the A1, but they don't, because it's bland and full of chain shops and Stamford isn't.
Changedmyname said:
Munter said:
Sorry I'm not sure we can count convenience as a value. And even if we did it's been maintain by the natural order of people generally doing what they think is most convenient.
You seem to be talking about good customer service. But that's a value the store holder has not the general population. And it appears is not something the population misses when shopping out of town. The internet is great at it, it's very good at suggesting things you might be interested in and telling you what is in stock and if it's not when they expect it to be/allowing preorders etc. If you exclude Yodel doing "deliveries" customer service has never been better.
Which ever way I know I'm doomed to become one of the jobseekers of the UK because of this.You seem to be talking about good customer service. But that's a value the store holder has not the general population. And it appears is not something the population misses when shopping out of town. The internet is great at it, it's very good at suggesting things you might be interested in and telling you what is in stock and if it's not when they expect it to be/allowing preorders etc. If you exclude Yodel doing "deliveries" customer service has never been better.
If you can't get customers to come to you, could you look at you going to them? Create a web presence and sell meat for home delivery all over the country?
Of course you wouldn't be able to do this just selling mince by the pound and so on, but whereas you might not have enough people in one Welsh town interested in the provenance and quality of meat to keep a proper traditional butcher in business, if you can appeal to such people across the country, maybe it becomes a different story?
If you're stocking rare breeds and unusual cuts with lots of detail about where and how they're farmed, maybe bundling in all the ingredients people need to cook a recipe you supply based around a particular cut of meat and so on, would you be able to survive and thrive?
This - bundling of the ingredients aside - is essentially what I get from my local butcher. If they closed down for any reason, I'd go to the web to find an alternative, either from another butcher or direct to the farmer, rather than lower my standards to match those of the supermarket with their wet "aged" beef and other undesirable rubbish.
NNDR - business rates - are collected by the local council but go to central government to be then redistributed.
Got to cry for Bury - the 'main drag' was historically The Rock (A58), and there were shopping streets off it as well as residential streets and mills with other main drags like Market St where there was a massive Co-op department store (I used to buy Spectrum games from there on the way home from school - it lasted until the mid-'80s
)...
Then the slum clearance came, and the town centre was redeveloped with few residential dwellings in the late '60s/early '70s plus a bypass (Peel Way) but The Rock and Market Street were main thoroughfares still. Later in the '70s came Jubilee Way and Angouleme Way - the latter with some leisure shopping on the outer side (Focus DIY - remember them???). The Rock was pedestrianised in the early '80s - as was MArket Street - then the "new" shopping centre was mostly modernised and covered over in the later '80s (leading to an act in parliament to write off the VAT on the increased rents, brought by the Church of England as the landowner
- £2M I believe).
Some shops came, some shops went, but the centre of gravity had shifted away south from The Rock.
In the last few years there has been PFI new build and the centre of gravity has shifted east and back towards The Rock.
Bury Market has seemingly gone from strength to strength despite this nonsense, thankfully
- but it's not near the latest developments and is on the fringes of the town centre generally . Cracking place, I'd recomment a visit - but parking to get there??? 
You could park outside the old market a few decades ago...
Got to cry for Bury - the 'main drag' was historically The Rock (A58), and there were shopping streets off it as well as residential streets and mills with other main drags like Market St where there was a massive Co-op department store (I used to buy Spectrum games from there on the way home from school - it lasted until the mid-'80s
)...Then the slum clearance came, and the town centre was redeveloped with few residential dwellings in the late '60s/early '70s plus a bypass (Peel Way) but The Rock and Market Street were main thoroughfares still. Later in the '70s came Jubilee Way and Angouleme Way - the latter with some leisure shopping on the outer side (Focus DIY - remember them???). The Rock was pedestrianised in the early '80s - as was MArket Street - then the "new" shopping centre was mostly modernised and covered over in the later '80s (leading to an act in parliament to write off the VAT on the increased rents, brought by the Church of England as the landowner
- £2M I believe). Some shops came, some shops went, but the centre of gravity had shifted away south from The Rock.
In the last few years there has been PFI new build and the centre of gravity has shifted east and back towards The Rock.
Bury Market has seemingly gone from strength to strength despite this nonsense, thankfully
- but it's not near the latest developments and is on the fringes of the town centre generally . Cracking place, I'd recomment a visit - but parking to get there??? You could park outside the old market a few decades ago...The death of the town centre is a problem only because it is a clear indicator of the failure of local politicians to create an environment where businesses can operate competitively. That's a function of how much they tax the businesses for the 'privilege' of being sited there, how much they tax people trying to come into town and how well they control crime.
Amazingly, when parking costs nothing, or a free (to the person wishing to go to town, actually paid for by business owners in the form of business rates) and easy park and ride scheme is set up then amazingly there is a general disposition to go to that place. That then increases noticeably when there is zero crime, and decreases massively when there is a great deal of it.
Out of town facilities that have good parking and private security staff patrolling are testament to this. Dumps with rampant crime tend to have deserted town centres. What a surprise!
The solution for every town that is losing business is to fix their crime & parking issues to get people back and to fix the rates issues so that the shops can be more competitive.
It doesn't change the fact that some shops do a great job of providing competitive prices with good service and others provide less competitive prices and/or less service, that's down to the retailer to figure out; but if you make it so difficult to shop in a place or allow crime to get so rampant to put most people off going there then there'll be no customers to enable any business to succeed.
For the many benefits the internet gives in shopping there are still disadvantages - you don't get to see the goods until they turn up and you often pay a fair amount in shipping charges - which may be 'free' but have to be paid for somewhere. Also, their version of customer service is often letting the consumer see a picture and figuring out what they want to buy for themselves, as opposed to having somebody who knows the pros and cons of every product and can help the consumer buy the best product for their needs, which you do get at a good retailer.
Beat that, Mr Cadence Clutching.
Amazingly, when parking costs nothing, or a free (to the person wishing to go to town, actually paid for by business owners in the form of business rates) and easy park and ride scheme is set up then amazingly there is a general disposition to go to that place. That then increases noticeably when there is zero crime, and decreases massively when there is a great deal of it.
Out of town facilities that have good parking and private security staff patrolling are testament to this. Dumps with rampant crime tend to have deserted town centres. What a surprise!
The solution for every town that is losing business is to fix their crime & parking issues to get people back and to fix the rates issues so that the shops can be more competitive.
It doesn't change the fact that some shops do a great job of providing competitive prices with good service and others provide less competitive prices and/or less service, that's down to the retailer to figure out; but if you make it so difficult to shop in a place or allow crime to get so rampant to put most people off going there then there'll be no customers to enable any business to succeed.
For the many benefits the internet gives in shopping there are still disadvantages - you don't get to see the goods until they turn up and you often pay a fair amount in shipping charges - which may be 'free' but have to be paid for somewhere. Also, their version of customer service is often letting the consumer see a picture and figuring out what they want to buy for themselves, as opposed to having somebody who knows the pros and cons of every product and can help the consumer buy the best product for their needs, which you do get at a good retailer.
Beat that, Mr Cadence Clutching.
TheHeretic said:
I have no problem with out of town shopping of local. Whatever I find easiest, and best for me will win. If the out of town is too far, or more expensive, (all other things being equal), then local will win, and vice versa. The problem local shopping has is that they tend to keep regular 'office' hours, so folks with regular office hours will more often than not be unable to go there, hence the convenience of the local Spar/Tesco/Sainsbury, etc.
Funnily enough I just had a letter published in my local rag regarding a local petition to keep Tesco out - my take being "if everyone agrees that we don't want Tesco, no one will shop there".Anyway, I'm with TheHeretic here. I shop during my working day at wherever is easiest to get to.
Parking is less of a factor than access tbh. Nothing makes me less likely to visit your shop than the road outside being pedestrianised.
But I suspect local councils want shoppers that will hang round all day, not just zip in and out.
If people have to choose between free parking adjacent to the shops or paying a fee and having to walk some distance to shop, then it really is a no-brainer where they'll go.
20 years ago the free car parks in my local village were always full during lunchtime, as people used to go there to buy their lunch and do a little shopping during their lunch break. Then the local authority introduced parking charges - initially fairly low but now a minimum of £1.20, which is too high especially if you were only going to be there 5 minutes while you bought a £2 sandwich. Result - carpark is now at best 50% full at the busiest time, and a number of smaller businesses have vanished. People now travel a couple of miles to Morrisons instead.
20 years ago the free car parks in my local village were always full during lunchtime, as people used to go there to buy their lunch and do a little shopping during their lunch break. Then the local authority introduced parking charges - initially fairly low but now a minimum of £1.20, which is too high especially if you were only going to be there 5 minutes while you bought a £2 sandwich. Result - carpark is now at best 50% full at the busiest time, and a number of smaller businesses have vanished. People now travel a couple of miles to Morrisons instead.
Edited by MartG on Saturday 5th January 11:36
Kermit power said:
Are you doomed because you can't compete full stop, or doomed because you can't compete on the High Street?
If you can't get customers to come to you, could you look at you going to them? Create a web presence and sell meat for home delivery all over the country?
Of course you wouldn't be able to do this just selling mince by the pound and so on, but whereas you might not have enough people in one Welsh town interested in the provenance and quality of meat to keep a proper traditional butcher in business, if you can appeal to such people across the country, maybe it becomes a different story?
If you're stocking rare breeds and unusual cuts with lots of detail about where and how they're farmed, maybe bundling in all the ingredients people need to cook a recipe you supply based around a particular cut of meat and so on, would you be able to survive and thrive?
This - bundling of the ingredients aside - is essentially what I get from my local butcher. If they closed down for any reason, I'd go to the web to find an alternative, either from another butcher or direct to the farmer, rather than lower my standards to match those of the supermarket with their wet "aged" beef and other undesirable rubbish.
I had a website for years selling mainly salt marsh lamb and welsh black beef along with orchard pork (free range) alas in the last three years it took a nose dive, and the expence of running and avertising took it's toll which out weighed the profits.If you can't get customers to come to you, could you look at you going to them? Create a web presence and sell meat for home delivery all over the country?
Of course you wouldn't be able to do this just selling mince by the pound and so on, but whereas you might not have enough people in one Welsh town interested in the provenance and quality of meat to keep a proper traditional butcher in business, if you can appeal to such people across the country, maybe it becomes a different story?
If you're stocking rare breeds and unusual cuts with lots of detail about where and how they're farmed, maybe bundling in all the ingredients people need to cook a recipe you supply based around a particular cut of meat and so on, would you be able to survive and thrive?
This - bundling of the ingredients aside - is essentially what I get from my local butcher. If they closed down for any reason, I'd go to the web to find an alternative, either from another butcher or direct to the farmer, rather than lower my standards to match those of the supermarket with their wet "aged" beef and other undesirable rubbish.
My accountant took business overveiw of five years and adviced me to cut my lossers.
So in laymans terms been there done that.
At the end of the day who would buy meat of a seaside Butcher when there are so many out there doing well?
Changedmyname said:
I had a website for years selling mainly salt marsh lamb and welsh black beef along with orchard pork (free range) alas in the last three years it took a nose dive, and the expence of running and avertising took it's toll which out weighed the profits.
My accountant took business overveiw of five years and adviced me to cut my lossers.
So in laymans terms been there done that.
At the end of the day who would buy meat of a seaside Butcher when there are so many out there doing well?
Sorry to hear that for you personally, although it does suggest something of a paradox. If enough High Street butchers are doing well enough for web-based affairs not to be able to thrive, surely that suggests "The High Street" as an entity doesn't particularly have a problem, so much as individual High Streets, mostly in sMy accountant took business overveiw of five years and adviced me to cut my lossers.
So in laymans terms been there done that.
At the end of the day who would buy meat of a seaside Butcher when there are so many out there doing well?
tty areas?I'm not sure you can learn anything from it, other than people cut down on buying posh meat when in the midst of a recession.
The irony in pure capitalism in this retailing sense is that, ultimately, it cuts down on consumer choice. The regulator is not doing enough to ensure that supermarkets don't kill off choice, in my opinion. As I see it, deciding between Sainsburies, Tesco, Morrisons or Asda is more hobsons choice than anything else.
The irony in pure capitalism in this retailing sense is that, ultimately, it cuts down on consumer choice. The regulator is not doing enough to ensure that supermarkets don't kill off choice, in my opinion. As I see it, deciding between Sainsburies, Tesco, Morrisons or Asda is more hobsons choice than anything else.
Kermit power said:
Sorry to hear that for you personally, although it does suggest something of a paradox. If enough High Street butchers are doing well enough for web-based affairs not to be able to thrive, surely that suggests "The High Street" as an entity doesn't particularly have a problem, so much as individual High Streets, mostly in stty areas?
I think it's more of a generation thing. Many people, particularly those under 40 don't understand enough about meat to make informed buying choices. The perception is if it's very red it must be fresh and the leaner the better. If it's prepacked in inert gas with a long sell by date and on a display bearing the endorsement of their favourite celebrity chef then that's what they'll buy.tty areas?That's if they're interested in cooking at all and don't just buy ready meals instead.
Kermit power said:
Sorry to hear that for you personally, although it does suggest something of a paradox. If enough High Street butchers are doing well enough for web-based affairs not to be able to thrive, surely that suggests "The High Street" as an entity doesn't particularly have a problem, so much as individual High Streets, mostly in stty areas?
The whole problem seems to effect all Butchers not just me, as I know all the butchers in my area , they all say the same thing , trade has dropped and the jobs market for this particular trade are few and far between.tty areas?My own shop has taken the hit as less and less holiday makers come to this part of Wales , the caravan sites where only half full at the peak of the season which was never heard off 5 ago.
This has been the trend through out seaside towns in the UK ,people no longer have the spending power that they once did.
I'm able to write this now because my shop is dead...ish even on a saturday.
Edited by Changedmyname on Saturday 5th January 15:45
Twincam16 said:
Kermit power said:
Changedmyname said:
Reading a lot of these posts it seems that people are less active than they once where.
It's easy to sit on your arse and everything is just a click away and that it will arrive on you doorstep within the next day or so.
Is this the future? no interaction whatso ever.
People have got lazy ,or too busy I don't know, but I do blame the internet for that.
I think you've got a couple of hugely flawed assumptions in there!It's easy to sit on your arse and everything is just a click away and that it will arrive on you doorstep within the next day or so.
Is this the future? no interaction whatso ever.
People have got lazy ,or too busy I don't know, but I do blame the internet for that.
Firstly, you're assuming people spend the same amount of time shopping online as they would going to the shops. Clearly this isn't the case, as there's no time lost in sticking the kids in the car, driving to the shops, finding somewhere to park, going and getting a ticket, getting the kids out of the car, shepherding them to the shops, walking round each shop, walking from one shop to the next, going back to the car if volumes of shopping get too great, walking back to the shops again if necessary, walking back to the car at the end, getting the kids back in and driving them home again.
Secondly, you're assuming that people replace time spent going to the shops with a sedentary activity
This may well often be the case, but it certainly doesn't have to be. My wife usually goes to the gym on Saturday mornings, I coach (and our kids participate in) mini-rugby on Sunday mornings, and we do family things in the afternoons. Something would have to give if we had to go shopping instead, and it would most likely be a physical activity.
Thirdly, you're assuming that if people aren't interacting with shop staff, they aren't interacting at all.
This is just silly! I have far more - and far more meaningful - interaction with my fellow coaches, the kids we coach and their parents on a Sunday than I ever would in a shop! On the other hand, with a wife and three small kids, I already get plenty of human interaction whether I want it or not, so there are certainly times where I want nothing more than to get out on my mountain bike and not see anyone for hours on end!
Overall, however, regardless of what I choose to do with the time I save by not going to the shops, it is time saved to do with as I wish. We have three small kids, so want to do stuff with them at the weekends instead of dragging them round the shops. We also couldn't afford to hire babysitters every weeknight to go out even if we wanted to, so doing the shopping online in the evening is pure time saved, as it's not time we could realistically do much else with. In fact, with today's technology, we could choose to take the kids somewhere half an hour away in the car to have some fun, and my wife can do all the grocery shopping on her phone on the way there!
Some people do seem to spend an awful lot of time on the internet these days. My heart sinks every time I hear someone listing 'social networking' as a 'hobby'.
An ex of mine. Left school at the age of 16 with 3 GCSEs and a baby on the way. Her partner at the time was a Labourer.
She worked in a corner shop part time and had 3 kids together in total. Then he died.
She upped her hours at the shop to pay for distance learning. She got A levels, then went on to study something to do with caring.
Now she runs a couple of care homes and is on a decent salary.
For no other reason than if something s
t happens to you, you pick yourself off and look at what next. Rather than the traditional attitude of who can help me.I have been through similar, but I don't have children so the example wont work when ticking your boxes.
If you want more I know a lot of people who have had to do the same because of abuse, drink, jobless, homeless and mental problems. Most of which have strived to do something about it.
otolith said:
Parking charges should be set at the minimum needed to ensure that car parks are never quite full, and no more. Unfortunately, councils just see them as a cash cow to balance the books. I think I would introduce primary legislation to stop that.
I don't think you need legislation, you need councils to realise that if they get the balance wrong then their town will no longer have value to shopkeepers.The town where I work introduced parking meters to help pay for infrastructure improvement projects and used to boom at lunch when people went shopping or going to local eateries. It resembles a ghost town now - it's just too expensive to justify going there when you can go a mile in the opposite direction and get pretty much the same choice with free parking.
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