Trade Union Anger over Vote Requirement.
Discussion
arp1 said:
How often does the private sector get a pay rise vs public sector pay rises... Iv not had a pay rise in goodness knows how long... Pay cut in real terms with the pension theft...
A lot of people in the state sector get a pay rise just for being there another year. For sure I've never had one of those!turbobloke said:
What a telling question. What battles indeed. Them and us, alive and well in the anachronistic class warfare mentality of public sector warriors.
Based on your typical political angle, it can hardly come as a surprise, although I do wonder.Do you think those on minimum wage zero-hour contracts for some massive corporation are sat there at 7am eagerly awaiting the preliminary final year results RNS to see how their pay is going to be adjusted?
Or worse, do you think they should trust you to benevolently hold their pay and conditions close to your heart?
trashbat said:
ased on your typical political angle, it can hardly come as a surprise, although I do wonder.
Do you think those on minimum wage zero-hour contracts for some massive corporation are sat there at 7am eagerly awaiting the preliminary final year results RNS to see how their pay is going to be adjusted?
Or worse, do you think they should trust you to benevolently hold their pay and conditions close to your heart?
Your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that these workers are somehow tied to their employer forever. Do you think those on minimum wage zero-hour contracts for some massive corporation are sat there at 7am eagerly awaiting the preliminary final year results RNS to see how their pay is going to be adjusted?
Or worse, do you think they should trust you to benevolently hold their pay and conditions close to your heart?
Thankfully we have a flexible employment system - they can leave if they don't like it and go somewhere better!
Johnnytheboy said:
Your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that these workers are somehow tied to their employer forever.
Thankfully we have a flexible employment system - they can leave if they don't like it and go somewhere better!
Yes, but most likely to somewhere where the conditions have also been reduced to match the average. Why continue - even though you are able - to offer an above-average pension scheme when you don't need it to differentiate yourself from the market when hiring staff, and there is no meaningful internal pressure from your existing staff?Thankfully we have a flexible employment system - they can leave if they don't like it and go somewhere better!
I know what you're saying, and to a limited extent I agree that freedom of movement improves conditions, but it disproportionately benefits highly paid, highly skilled, highly mobile, highly demanded white collar workers who have much better exertion of control over their market value. If you're less fortunate in those respects then collective bargaining is a decent tool to compensate with.
The question was around why you don't see the private sector on strike, and I'm suggesting that it's because the relevant bit of the private sector has already been broken.
Johnnytheboy said:
arp1 said:
How often does the private sector get a pay rise vs public sector pay rises... Iv not had a pay rise in goodness knows how long... Pay cut in real terms with the pension theft...
A lot of people in the state sector get a pay rise just for being there another year. For sure I've never had one of those!however I think you are confusing pay rises with incremental progression
Incremental progression is competency based - failure to exercise these properly is a management issue not an issue of the pay scheme.
incremental progression is time limited ( bands can have as few as 3 increments and not many extend beyond 10 increments in normal progression - although there are some incremental structures out there -mainly in the military where some one trades later promotion possibilities for more increments e.g. some of the aviator and Health professional pay spines)
incremental progression actually saves money - i'm not sure of many settings where there isn;t incremental progression where the full rate for the role is not paid until 6 (or more) years of service
trashbat said:
turbobloke said:
What a telling question. What battles indeed. Them and us, alive and well in the anachronistic class warfare mentality of public sector warriors.
Based on your typical political angle, it can hardly come as a surprise, although I do wonder.Do you think those on minimum wage zero-hour contracts for some massive corporation are sat there at 7am eagerly awaiting the preliminary final year results RNS to see how their pay is going to be adjusted?
They (zhw) express marginally higher job satisfaction levels and significantly better work-life balance than employees generally so all-told those engaging with "the struggle" on their behalf might like to ask the people whose heads they're patting.
Given the relative absence rates (public/private) they're less likely to be thinking about when they're going to throw their next sickie; or go on strike.
arp1 said:
I work within the emergency service industry and our union protects our terms conditions working practices wages health and safety and the rest and without them the 'man' would be able to ride roughshod over us... So yes, hard working - for YOU!
does that not apply to all jobs? H&E and rules apply to all employers. You dont need a Union, you dont need to go on strike. Yes we all should be hard working - otherwise you would be just a lazy worker.As said before if you dont like the job leave.
ps Im hard working and pay taxes to pay for YOU !!
trashbat said:
...
I know what you're saying, and to a limited extent I agree that freedom of movement improves conditions, but it disproportionately benefits highly paid, highly skilled, highly mobile, highly demanded white collar workers who have much better exertion of control over their market value. If you're less fortunate in those respects then collective bargaining is a decent tool to compensate with.
.. .
People only become the first of those (highly paid) in the private sector as a consequence of the other three. I know what you're saying, and to a limited extent I agree that freedom of movement improves conditions, but it disproportionately benefits highly paid, highly skilled, highly mobile, highly demanded white collar workers who have much better exertion of control over their market value. If you're less fortunate in those respects then collective bargaining is a decent tool to compensate with.
.. .
We are all free and able to improve our lot on those three items.
Collective bargaining does happen in the private sector, but at the end of the day people still have the mechanisms to improve their situation without "striking". If they can't be bothered to do that, why do they warrant "assistance" over and above the basic employment law cover we already enjoy...?
If enough people leave to do other things, market forces will drive changes in rates/conditions in the jobs they left if they're deemed essential. Undue interference just makes people lazy.
mph1977 said:
however I think you are confusing pay rises with incremental progression
No, I understand the difference, but it's a bit rich to relabel a pay rise as something else and hope people won't notice.mph1977 said:
Incremental progression is competency based - failure to exercise these properly is a management issue not an issue of the pay scheme.
Ha ha, yes, deciding not to award someone their annual pay rise would....yes, that's right!... make everyone go on strike!trashbat said:
The question was around why you don't see the private sector on strike, and I'm suggesting that it's because the relevant bit of the private sector has already been broken.
Indeed. The unionised bits of the private sector, have almost completely striked/struck(?) themselves out of existence.About the only reasonably union-heavy private industry I can think of is the defence industry, and that's only sustained by UK government spending.
superlightr said:
does that not apply to all jobs? H&E and rules apply to all employers. You dont need a Union, you dont need to go on strike. Yes we all should be hard working - otherwise you would be just a lazy worker.
As said before if you dont like the job leave.
ps Im hard working and pay taxes to pay for YOU !!
By that token, I pay my own wages and yours by buying things from the private sector... Big cycle As said before if you dont like the job leave.
ps Im hard working and pay taxes to pay for YOU !!
and my job satisfaction outweighs the desire to look elsewhere, however when my wage is going down and the private sector is going up, coupled with the mps shenanigans with their salary, you can imagine my dissatisfaction at the whole situation... We are paying for the private sectors mistakes remember, and our union allows us to be better protected by working for us, so CMD's plans are just another nail in the coffin for equality and fairness in the workplace.Johnnytheboy said:
Indeed. The unionised bits of the private sector, have almost completely striked/struck(?) themselves out of existence.
You say cause, I say effect, let's call the whole thing off. Rather than strikes - what strikes? - the inherent fragmentation of the private sector, the structural legislative dismantling of union power, the waning popularity of collective politics & many other factors have made collective bargaining almost irrelevant outside the biggest private sector workforces (e.g. BAES as you point out). All that really remains is individual representation.Johnnytheboy said:
mph1977 said:
however I think you are confusing pay rises with incremental progression
No, I understand the difference, but it's a bit rich to relabel a pay rise as something else and hope people won't notice.mph1977 said:
Incremental progression is competency based - failure to exercise these properly is a management issue not an issue of the pay scheme.
Ha ha, yes, deciding not to award someone their annual pay rise would....yes, that's right!... make everyone go on strike!care to provide any evidence of a strike in recent history down to failure to award incremental progression where it was warranted ...
recent public sector disoute has been over the attempts to claim that incremental progression IS the annual pay rise ...
superlightr said:
arp1 said:
I work within the emergency service industry and our union protects our terms conditions working practices wages health and safety and the rest and without them the 'man' would be able to ride roughshod over us... So yes, hard working - for YOU!
does that not apply to all jobs? H&E and rules apply to all employers. You dont need a Union, you dont need to go on strike. Yes we all should be hard working - otherwise you would be just a lazy worker.As said before if you dont like the job leave.
ps Im hard working and pay taxes to pay for YOU !!
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
crankedup said:
'if you don't like the job, leave'. Not something I entirely agree with, but ultimately that is 'the final solution'.
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
Can I ask what job he was asked to do that was an insult?Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
'if you don't like the job, leave'. Not something I entirely agree with, but ultimately that is 'the final solution'.
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
Can I ask what job he was asked to do that was an insult?Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
So, skilled qualified electrical engineer as a contractor and working in a hospital to resolve and repair electrical issues and problems with all plant, equipment and machinery.
What is the most least likely task you would be expecting that employee (HE WAS SELF EMPLOYED TO THE CONTRACTOR) to be assigned.
crankedup said:
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
'if you don't like the job, leave'. Not something I entirely agree with, but ultimately that is 'the final solution'.
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
Can I ask what job he was asked to do that was an insult?Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
On giving in his notice the boss apologised and agreed the task should never have been handed to him, and regretted losing him as an employee.
The reason I asked is that the days of demarkation are long gone. In working in IT for over 30 years, there have been numerous times when I've experienced the MD or a manager calling on people do do things completely outside of their job remit in order to help out during a specific crisis or simply because the business needed something doing and no one else was available in the timeframe. All hands to the pump, so to speak. Never did that cause an issue for anyone as it was always the business came first before the individuals ego.
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
'if you don't like the job, leave'. Not something I entirely agree with, but ultimately that is 'the final solution'.
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
Can I ask what job he was asked to do that was an insult?Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
On giving in his notice the boss apologised and agreed the task should never have been handed to him, and regretted losing him as an employee.
The reason I asked is that the days of demarkation are long gone. In working in IT for over 30 years, there have been numerous times when I've experienced the MD or a manager calling on people do do things completely outside of their job remit in order to help out during a specific crisis or simply because the business needed something doing and no one else was available in the timeframe. All hands to the pump, so to speak. Never did that cause an issue for anyone as it was always the business came first before the individuals ego.
Every cloud and all that, he has now landed a far better job outside of the Public Sector and its contractors.
crankedup said:
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
garyhun said:
crankedup said:
'if you don't like the job, leave'. Not something I entirely agree with, but ultimately that is 'the final solution'.
Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
Can I ask what job he was asked to do that was an insult?Our lad took on a job within the NHS as an external contractor, he was given a task which our lad found to be objectionable, not least an insult to a skilled engineer and outside of that to be reasonably expected by some considerable margin. He complained and was told 'if you don't like it find another job'. So he did and gave a one minute notice period last Friday. They are now without an engineer that was required for an urgent job to be completed.
Until employers learn that treatment of staff in a decent and respectable way can bring it's own benefits then the improving jobs market will mean those bad employers will begin to struggle and retain valuable staff. It's a two way street and a little mutual respect goes a long way.
On giving in his notice the boss apologised and agreed the task should never have been handed to him, and regretted losing him as an employee.
The reason I asked is that the days of demarkation are long gone. In working in IT for over 30 years, there have been numerous times when I've experienced the MD or a manager calling on people do do things completely outside of their job remit in order to help out during a specific crisis or simply because the business needed something doing and no one else was available in the timeframe. All hands to the pump, so to speak. Never did that cause an issue for anyone as it was always the business came first before the individuals ego.
Every cloud and all that, he has now landed a far better job outside of the Public Sector and its contractors.
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