Things are not looking good in Venezuela.
Discussion
BBC2 doco was a bit light on explaination but as Chavez was dead its easy to blame everything on him. Maybe you cant trust the poor to put a
shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
Iamnotkloot said:
I find it fascinating, and appalling, how such an oil rich country can be so poor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Venez...So short sighted - underinvest in your critical industry...
"By 2017, PDVSA could not even afford to export oil through international water, which requires safety inspections and cleaning under maritime law, with a fleet of tankers stranded in the Caribbean Sea due to the issue"
irocfan said:
Nonononononono it's the wrong type of socialism - their's will be different
When I was in a pub last summer with a Romanian colleague, the next table were having a loud discussion about the joys of socialism, he leant across and said with the greatest respect your talking crap then went on to educate them about the realities of growing up in socialist state.Twas great to see the scales fall from their eyes even the fella who advised that all previous socialists states were doing it wrong, some of his tales are eye openers.
turbomoped said:
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
I think part of the problem was Chavez firing all of the people who actually knew how to run an oil company, and filling their jobs with corrupt party hacks who couldn't run a bath, at the same time as ceasing any meaningful re-investment in the industry.eharding said:
I think part of the problem was Chavez firing all of the people who actually knew how to run an oil company, and filling their jobs with corrupt party hacks who couldn't run a bath, at the same time as ceasing any meaningful re-investment in the industry.
Yup,No good having lots of oil if you can't get it out of the ground or ship it anywhere.
Iamnotkloot said:
Fascinating program on BBC2 last night talking about Chavez and Venezuela.
He was charismatic and, initially at least, enacted various laws to take people out of poverty. Then megalomania began to take over; too many yes men, no serious opposition. Power corrupts and he had absolute power.
And then Maduro....the same but without the charisma, intellect or the luck (falling oil prices).
No doubt what is happening in Venezuela today started under Chavez.
I find it fascinating, and appalling, how such an oil rich country can be so poor.
And yes, Corbyn and Livingstone were shown blowing smoke up Chavez’s ass.
I do hope the Corbyn bits are shown during the next General Election.He was charismatic and, initially at least, enacted various laws to take people out of poverty. Then megalomania began to take over; too many yes men, no serious opposition. Power corrupts and he had absolute power.
And then Maduro....the same but without the charisma, intellect or the luck (falling oil prices).
No doubt what is happening in Venezuela today started under Chavez.
I find it fascinating, and appalling, how such an oil rich country can be so poor.
And yes, Corbyn and Livingstone were shown blowing smoke up Chavez’s ass.
A very enlightening program. It reminded me of Mrs T’s saying. Something like “Socialism works really well until the last person with money, runs out”
Not feeding the goose that lays the Golden egg is quite funny were it not for the total devastation caused to the general population.
Venezuela has always been corrupt.
Before Chavez, the country was a typical Latam oligarchy with the elite controlling the money and the poor left to the dogs. This opened the way for Chavez, a former soldier. He made friends with the poor, handing out free money and in return was kept in power. But he had no education, no intelligence and no idea how to run an economy. Maduro is even more stupid. At least the pre-Chavez governments kept the place running.
Case in point - PDVSA the state oil company sits on the worlds highest oil reserves. But it is f
ked. It was run by professional engineers both local and foreign. Chavez fired the local engineers and replaced them with his own people. Why? Because PDVSA was a money making machine and he wanted his people to benefit. Personally. I used to work for a firm that managed investments for Venezuelans. The number of PDVSA employees earning normal salaries who came to us looking to invest millions of dollars was frightening. And they refused to honour contracts with foreign contractors. A friend of mine supplied them with a special bit of equipment vital to keep the oil flowing. But he wasn’t paid. So he stopped supplying them. So the well stopped working. The current PDVSA employees don’t have a clue how to run an oil company.
We managed a pension fund for Venezuelan universities. But the universities were taken over by Chavez people, and the trustees were replaced. The pension fund? Gone.
Caracas had some beautiful shopping malls. But the Chavez supporting people could not afford to buy there. So the government obliged store owners to reduce prices. So the store owners went out of business. Guess how many shopping malls are operating now?
Caracas was a dirty, violent, dangerous place the last time I went there (years ago). Passengers were kidnapped straight out of the airport. Someone was kidnapped at gunpoint from the lobby of the best hotel. It is a whole lot worse now.
Before Chavez, the country was a typical Latam oligarchy with the elite controlling the money and the poor left to the dogs. This opened the way for Chavez, a former soldier. He made friends with the poor, handing out free money and in return was kept in power. But he had no education, no intelligence and no idea how to run an economy. Maduro is even more stupid. At least the pre-Chavez governments kept the place running.
Case in point - PDVSA the state oil company sits on the worlds highest oil reserves. But it is f
ked. It was run by professional engineers both local and foreign. Chavez fired the local engineers and replaced them with his own people. Why? Because PDVSA was a money making machine and he wanted his people to benefit. Personally. I used to work for a firm that managed investments for Venezuelans. The number of PDVSA employees earning normal salaries who came to us looking to invest millions of dollars was frightening. And they refused to honour contracts with foreign contractors. A friend of mine supplied them with a special bit of equipment vital to keep the oil flowing. But he wasn’t paid. So he stopped supplying them. So the well stopped working. The current PDVSA employees don’t have a clue how to run an oil company. We managed a pension fund for Venezuelan universities. But the universities were taken over by Chavez people, and the trustees were replaced. The pension fund? Gone.
Caracas had some beautiful shopping malls. But the Chavez supporting people could not afford to buy there. So the government obliged store owners to reduce prices. So the store owners went out of business. Guess how many shopping malls are operating now?
Caracas was a dirty, violent, dangerous place the last time I went there (years ago). Passengers were kidnapped straight out of the airport. Someone was kidnapped at gunpoint from the lobby of the best hotel. It is a whole lot worse now.
Ayahuasca said:
Venezuela has always been corrupt.
Before Chavez, the country was a typical Latam oligarchy with the elite controlling the money and the poor left to the dogs. This opened the way for Chavez, a former soldier. He made friends with the poor, handing out free money and in return was kept in power. But he had no education, no intelligence and no idea how to run an economy. Maduro is even more stupid. At least the pre-Chavez governments kept the place running.
Case in point - PDVSA the state oil company sits on the worlds highest oil reserves. But it is fked. It was run by professional engineers both local and foreign. Chavez fired the local engineers and replaced them with his own people. Why? Because PDVSA was a money making machine and he wanted his people to benefit. Personally. I used to work for a firm that managed investments for Venezuelans. The number of PDVSA employees earning normal salaries who came to us looking to invest millions of dollars was frightening. And they refused to honour contracts with foreign contractors. A friend of mine supplied them with a special bit of equipment vital to keep the oil flowing. But he wasn’t paid. So he stopped supplying them. So the well stopped working. The current PDVSA employees don’t have a clue how to run an oil company.
We managed a pension fund for Venezuelan universities. But the universities were taken over by Chavez people, and the trustees were replaced. The pension fund? Gone.
Caracas had some beautiful shopping malls. But the Chavez supporting people could not afford to buy there. So the government obliged store owners to reduce prices. So the store owners went out of business. Guess how many shopping malls are operating now?
Caracas was a dirty, violent, dangerous place the last time I went there (years ago). Passengers were kidnapped straight out of the airport. Someone was kidnapped at gunpoint from the lobby of the best hotel. It is a whole lot worse now.
They should have had you on the documentary instead of the odd inclusion of his makeup lady.Before Chavez, the country was a typical Latam oligarchy with the elite controlling the money and the poor left to the dogs. This opened the way for Chavez, a former soldier. He made friends with the poor, handing out free money and in return was kept in power. But he had no education, no intelligence and no idea how to run an economy. Maduro is even more stupid. At least the pre-Chavez governments kept the place running.
Case in point - PDVSA the state oil company sits on the worlds highest oil reserves. But it is f
ked. It was run by professional engineers both local and foreign. Chavez fired the local engineers and replaced them with his own people. Why? Because PDVSA was a money making machine and he wanted his people to benefit. Personally. I used to work for a firm that managed investments for Venezuelans. The number of PDVSA employees earning normal salaries who came to us looking to invest millions of dollars was frightening. And they refused to honour contracts with foreign contractors. A friend of mine supplied them with a special bit of equipment vital to keep the oil flowing. But he wasn’t paid. So he stopped supplying them. So the well stopped working. The current PDVSA employees don’t have a clue how to run an oil company. We managed a pension fund for Venezuelan universities. But the universities were taken over by Chavez people, and the trustees were replaced. The pension fund? Gone.
Caracas had some beautiful shopping malls. But the Chavez supporting people could not afford to buy there. So the government obliged store owners to reduce prices. So the store owners went out of business. Guess how many shopping malls are operating now?
Caracas was a dirty, violent, dangerous place the last time I went there (years ago). Passengers were kidnapped straight out of the airport. Someone was kidnapped at gunpoint from the lobby of the best hotel. It is a whole lot worse now.
I worked in Venezuala for a few weeks about 20 years ago, for an oil and gas related company co-incidentally.
It's such a shame to see what is happening as it really is a lovely place with lovely people. I was based in Maracaibo for my trip and got speaking to a few locals. The 'normal' working man seemed to be happy if they earned enough to pay their outgoings and have enough left for a nice meal out at the weekend, they didn't seem to have much ambition beyond that.
I was talking to a corporate lawyer one evening who said that Venezuala had a rinse and repeat political process going on where those in power would rinse the goverment coffers into Swiss banks for as long as they could stave off an uprising, then run away. Only to be replaced with the next government which would do exactly the same. He said it was just the way things worked and wouldn't change. He reckoned this was on a kind of 10 year cycle. Recent events would suggest he wasn't far off the mark.
Such resources and wealth available for everyone in the country, yet crippled by government corruption and ineptitude.
It's such a shame to see what is happening as it really is a lovely place with lovely people. I was based in Maracaibo for my trip and got speaking to a few locals. The 'normal' working man seemed to be happy if they earned enough to pay their outgoings and have enough left for a nice meal out at the weekend, they didn't seem to have much ambition beyond that.
I was talking to a corporate lawyer one evening who said that Venezuala had a rinse and repeat political process going on where those in power would rinse the goverment coffers into Swiss banks for as long as they could stave off an uprising, then run away. Only to be replaced with the next government which would do exactly the same. He said it was just the way things worked and wouldn't change. He reckoned this was on a kind of 10 year cycle. Recent events would suggest he wasn't far off the mark.
Such resources and wealth available for everyone in the country, yet crippled by government corruption and ineptitude.
turbomoped said:
BBC2 doco was a bit light on explaination but as Chavez was dead its easy to blame everything on him. Maybe you cant trust the poor to put a
shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
Chavez kicked out all the foreign oil companies and took their stuff in the country for free effectively. Which meant they benefited economically at the time. However it made any decent oil company completely avoid the country to avoid the same happening again. And since the equipment/ experience etc is mostly international then it caused their oil industry to go down. Then add in the oil price drop and a country that relies on oil is absolutely stuffed.shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
I've posted on this earlier in the thread, and don't really want to do it all again, but if you think this is all about the failure of socialism then you are fooling yourself.
It is the same mixture of greed, corruption, criminality and incompetence that has plagued Venezuela for generations. Much of Latin America as well, for that matter. Chavez espoused socialist philosophy when he took over, and to some extent he was justified in trying to include the poorest people as part of the political landscape, as they were simply sidelined and ignored by previous regimes in a way we just can't conceive of in a country like the UK. But it soon went predictably downhill.
For Maduro, socialism is just a fig leaf to try and justify his behaviour while he, his family and his cronies bleed the country dry and use Venezuela as a base for their criminal activities. Corbyn et al have been fools not to see thought this.
It is the same mixture of greed, corruption, criminality and incompetence that has plagued Venezuela for generations. Much of Latin America as well, for that matter. Chavez espoused socialist philosophy when he took over, and to some extent he was justified in trying to include the poorest people as part of the political landscape, as they were simply sidelined and ignored by previous regimes in a way we just can't conceive of in a country like the UK. But it soon went predictably downhill.
For Maduro, socialism is just a fig leaf to try and justify his behaviour while he, his family and his cronies bleed the country dry and use Venezuela as a base for their criminal activities. Corbyn et al have been fools not to see thought this.
NRS said:
turbomoped said:
BBC2 doco was a bit light on explaination but as Chavez was dead its easy to blame everything on him. Maybe you cant trust the poor to put a
shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
Chavez kicked out all the foreign oil companies and took their stuff in the country for free effectively. Which meant they benefited economically at the time. However it made any decent oil company completely avoid the country to avoid the same happening again. And since the equipment/ experience etc is mostly international then it caused their oil industry to go down. Then add in the oil price drop and a country that relies on oil is absolutely stuffed.shift in once they think a saviour has come.
Still oil production fell massively and you can only assume the old establisment (US puppets) sabotaged production to make him look bad as the whole thing could have ticked along nicely.
Maybe he should have left oil industry alone but taxed them to pay for his reforms but I guess we will never know.
Roofless Toothless said:
...For Maduro, socialism is just a fig leaf to try and justify his behaviour while he, his family and his cronies bleed the country dry and use Venezuela as a base for their criminal activities. Corbyn et al have been fools not to see thought this.
Indeed. Maduro simply has to make occasional references to "Revolution!" and "For The People!" then blame the US for something and the Lefties fall for it time and time again. Pathetic soundbites that are seemingly lapped up by the ignorant. For the many, not the few! etc etc.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-469...
A day of action is planned in Caracas today. The US Vice-President has released a message to the Venezuelan people, which purports to be supportive to the protests against the "usurper" Maduro, but is blatantly inflammatory in its timing and content.
American intervention in Latin America has a pretty contentious history, and I suspect such overt encouragement to the protesters might well provoke a backlash among Chavistas, who are, as they see it, nationalists standing up to Uncle Sam. It is certainly pouring petrol on the flames.
I fear bloodshed in Venezuela today. A heavy hand from the White House was perhaps ill advised. There is a real danger of civil war, National Guard fighting the Army, etc.
A day of action is planned in Caracas today. The US Vice-President has released a message to the Venezuelan people, which purports to be supportive to the protests against the "usurper" Maduro, but is blatantly inflammatory in its timing and content.
American intervention in Latin America has a pretty contentious history, and I suspect such overt encouragement to the protesters might well provoke a backlash among Chavistas, who are, as they see it, nationalists standing up to Uncle Sam. It is certainly pouring petrol on the flames.
I fear bloodshed in Venezuela today. A heavy hand from the White House was perhaps ill advised. There is a real danger of civil war, National Guard fighting the Army, etc.
“US President Donald Trump has said he recognises Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó as interim president.
It came minutes after the 35-year-old declared himself as acting leader in Caracas on Wednesday.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-469...
It came minutes after the 35-year-old declared himself as acting leader in Caracas on Wednesday.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-469...
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