Suella Braverman: ‘Islamists are in charge’
Discussion
86 said:
Imagine living in Ukraine imagine living in North Korea imagine being a Uyghur in China etc etc the world is a nasty place. Never been any ethnic cleansing in Europe oh wait there has. Thought Europeans were such nice people
Imagine living in the UK under constant threat in the culture wars!Kermit power said:
Imagine being a believer in free speech and seeing marches banned because you don't like their message.
Plenty of people protest about things I completely disagree with, but so long as the protests are not violent, we should support the right to protest
Little interest in banning anything, but protest? They are calling for Intifada, openly chanting genocidal slogans, all whilst the Met get some selfies in. Supporting terrorists every single weekend is not peaceful protest.Plenty of people protest about things I completely disagree with, but so long as the protests are not violent, we should support the right to protest
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:DeejRC said:
How/why do so many of you seem to know/listen to Suella and Kemi?
I can, and do, get through the vast majority of my days without hearing or thinking about either of them. Without reading anything they have written or said.
For 2 ppl who have such a materially minimal impact upon British life - including their time in govt - they seemingly manage to excite so many of you.
I just don’t get it.
Braverman was Home Secretary until very recently.I can, and do, get through the vast majority of my days without hearing or thinking about either of them. Without reading anything they have written or said.
For 2 ppl who have such a materially minimal impact upon British life - including their time in govt - they seemingly manage to excite so many of you.
I just don’t get it.
She's still a sitting MP and has just written an Islamophobic dog whistle article in a national newspaper.
Sunak has done nothing about it.
Not even a whimper.
That might not bother you and you can do the whole "why are you bothered by it" thing but it does bother some people.
I’m aware she was Home Secretary.
And I repeat - such a materially minimal impact. And that was when she was Home Secretary!
And now she has written a newspaper article. Which still has an absolutely minimal impact upon British life.
I just don’t get it. I just don’t get why so many of you consider this stuff important. Either those who are pro what Suella and Kemi say and those who don’t. As for Rishi ignoring it, damn right! Why on earth give a monkeys about it when you have the economy to care about? You would have to be nuts as a PM to do that.
In an election yr the only thing that matters to any govt is money. Everything else is irrelevant. Forget that and you will lose 99 out of 100 elections.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:AW111 said:
So many stupid old farts terrified of brown people on here.
In some cases I think it's fear.In some cases I think it's hatred.
In some cases I think it's ignorance.
In some cases I think they just go with whatever they think the party line is.
NomduJour said:
Little interest in banning anything, but protest? They are calling for Intifada, openly chanting genocidal slogans, all whilst the Met get some selfies in. Supporting terrorists every single weekend is not peaceful protest.
One man's terrorist and all that... Of course there have been numerous atrocities committed by Islamic groups over recent decades, but at the same time you can look back over the British Afghan wars as part of the Great Game against Russia, the mostly Anglo-French setting of national boundaries in the Middle East, American support for Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the Great Game v2, the Cold War, Blair's dodgy dossier to justify the invasion of Iraq...
I suspect that if you and I had seen ourselves and people like us so frequently on the receiving end of geopolitically motivated violence that we're completely unequipped to counter, we would at the very least view 'our' terrorists as freedom fighters and quite possibly be inclined to join them. Looking in from the outside, I don't think it's that difficult to be able to empathise with the causes of the violence without in any way actually condoning or supporting it.
Kermit power said:
NomduJour said:
Little interest in banning anything, but protest? They are calling for Intifada, openly chanting genocidal slogans, all whilst the Met get some selfies in. Supporting terrorists every single weekend is not peaceful protest.
One man's terrorist and all that... Of course there have been numerous atrocities committed by Islamic groups over recent decades, but at the same time you can look back over the British Afghan wars as part of the Great Game against Russia, the mostly Anglo-French setting of national boundaries in the Middle East, American support for Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the Great Game v2, the Cold War, Blair's dodgy dossier to justify the invasion of Iraq...
I suspect that if you and I had seen ourselves and people like us so frequently on the receiving end of geopolitically motivated violence that we're completely unequipped to counter, we would at the very least view 'our' terrorists as freedom fighters and quite possibly be inclined to join them. Looking in from the outside, I don't think it's that difficult to be able to empathise with the causes of the violence without in any way actually condoning or supporting it.
DeejRC said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:DeejRC said:
How/why do so many of you seem to know/listen to Suella and Kemi?
I can, and do, get through the vast majority of my days without hearing or thinking about either of them. Without reading anything they have written or said.
For 2 ppl who have such a materially minimal impact upon British life - including their time in govt - they seemingly manage to excite so many of you.
I just don’t get it.
Braverman was Home Secretary until very recently.I can, and do, get through the vast majority of my days without hearing or thinking about either of them. Without reading anything they have written or said.
For 2 ppl who have such a materially minimal impact upon British life - including their time in govt - they seemingly manage to excite so many of you.
I just don’t get it.
She's still a sitting MP and has just written an Islamophobic dog whistle article in a national newspaper.
Sunak has done nothing about it.
Not even a whimper.
That might not bother you and you can do the whole "why are you bothered by it" thing but it does bother some people.
I’m aware she was Home Secretary.
And I repeat - such a materially minimal impact. And that was when she was Home Secretary!
And now she has written a newspaper article. Which still has an absolutely minimal impact upon British life.
I just don’t get it. I just don’t get why so many of you consider this stuff important. Either those who are pro what Suella and Kemi say and those who don’t. As for Rishi ignoring it, damn right! Why on earth give a monkeys about it when you have the economy to care about? You would have to be nuts as a PM to do that.
In an election yr the only thing that matters to any govt is money. Everything else is irrelevant. Forget that and you will lose 99 out of 100 elections.
Kermit power said:
On the first point, you do realise that the people who work for the NHS also grow old, retire and need replacing, don't you? And that without the massive employment of immigrants in the NHS right since its inception, it would long since have collapsed?
Yes, I've acknowledged that; ageing population, declining birtrate, more immigrants required. The contentious point is the suggestion this will lead to demographic change over the long term.KP said:
Also, that the demands placed on the NHS have increased massively because whilst life expectancy has increased dramatically in recent decades, healthy life expectancy has moved much more slowly, meaning far more pressure on the NHS.
The idea that the NHS is struggling primarily or even significantly because of immigration is simply incorrect Correlation rather than Causation.
It's 700k people per year. That's the equivalent to, what, the population of Birmingham? How does that not put pressure on housing, infrastructure, etc?The idea that the NHS is struggling primarily or even significantly because of immigration is simply incorrect Correlation rather than Causation.
KP said:
On the second point, you've answered it for me! 
You know that line from financial adverts, "past performance is not a guarantee of future performance"? If we were having this discussion 150 years ago, you'd be saying that there was no reason to expect Christianity in Europe to decline as it hadn't in the previous 1,850 years, but look at it now! That doesn't mean that Islam will experience a similar decline in the next 150 years, but it certainly makes the point that you cannot possibly assume to say whether or not it will.
Is there any evidence to suggest even the slightest decline? You know that line from financial adverts, "past performance is not a guarantee of future performance"? If we were having this discussion 150 years ago, you'd be saying that there was no reason to expect Christianity in Europe to decline as it hadn't in the previous 1,850 years, but look at it now! That doesn't mean that Islam will experience a similar decline in the next 150 years, but it certainly makes the point that you cannot possibly assume to say whether or not it will.KP said:
Lastly, your idea of continued immigration from the Middle East doesn't really make sense. Steps are already being taken to address the unsustainable issue with the ageing pensioner segment of society, plus the increase in life expectancy has plateaued, so there will be a natural decrease in the levels of immigration we need creating a pull, whilst on the push side, no war lasts forever, so you can't say with any degree of accuracy whether there will be a sustained flow of refugees from the Middle East for that long period.
It's not "my idea". It was based on projections the muslim population in the UK would be 16% by 2050 and which EU countries would have a Muslim majority further out. It also predicts which EU countries are unlikely to ever reach a majority. Regards "no war last forever", Israel and Palestine might disagree. Which is somewhat ironic given that it started with resistance to Jewish migration, led to civil unrest and has only been fuelled further when the Jews wanted, and created, their own state.
Thanks for actually having a proper discussion on this
Kermit power said:
NomduJour said:
Little interest in banning anything, but protest? They are calling for Intifada, openly chanting genocidal slogans, all whilst the Met get some selfies in. Supporting terrorists every single weekend is not peaceful protest.
One man's terrorist and all that... Of course there have been numerous atrocities committed by Islamic groups over recent decades, but at the same time you can look back over the British Afghan wars as part of the Great Game against Russia, the mostly Anglo-French setting of national boundaries in the Middle East, American support for Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the Great Game v2, the Cold War, Blair's dodgy dossier to justify the invasion of Iraq...
I suspect that if you and I had seen ourselves and people like us so frequently on the receiving end of geopolitically motivated violence that we're completely unequipped to counter, we would at the very least view 'our' terrorists as freedom fighters and quite possibly be inclined to join them. Looking in from the outside, I don't think it's that difficult to be able to empathise with the causes of the violence without in any way actually condoning or supporting it.
AW111 said:
So many stupid old farts terrified of brown people on here.
Well speaking as an old fart who likes and admires brown Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists but is a bit reserved about people whose religion tells them to subjugate non-believers, I'd say that was a stupid generalisation from a young fart who has never heard of Martin Luther King (look it up).audidoody said:
AW111 said:
So many stupid old farts terrified of brown people on here.
Well speaking as an old fart who likes and admires brown Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists but is a bit reserved about people whose religion tells them to subjugate non-believers, I'd say that was a stupid generalisation from a young fart who has never heard of Martin Luther King (look it up).I watched the moon landings live - did you?
And nearly every religion tells (or told) their followers to subjugate non-believers.
Oakey said:
Kermit power said:
On the first point, you do realise that the people who work for the NHS also grow old, retire and need replacing, don't you? And that without the massive employment of immigrants in the NHS right since its inception, it would long since have collapsed?
Yes, I've acknowledged that; ageing population, declining birtrate, more immigrants required. The contentious point is the suggestion this will lead to demographic change over the long term.KP said:
Also, that the demands placed on the NHS have increased massively because whilst life expectancy has increased dramatically in recent decades, healthy life expectancy has moved much more slowly, meaning far more pressure on the NHS.
The idea that the NHS is struggling primarily or even significantly because of immigration is simply incorrect Correlation rather than Causation.
It's 700k people per year. That's the equivalent to, what, the population of Birmingham? How does that not put pressure on housing, infrastructure, etc?The idea that the NHS is struggling primarily or even significantly because of immigration is simply incorrect Correlation rather than Causation.
KP said:
On the second point, you've answered it for me! You know that line from financial adverts, "past performance is not a guarantee of future performance"? If we were having this discussion 150 years ago, you'd be saying that there was no reason to expect Christianity in Europe to decline as it hadn't in the previous 1,850 years, but look at it now! That doesn't mean that Islam will experience a similar decline in the next 150 years, but it certainly makes the point that you cannot possibly assume to say whether or not it will.
Is there any evidence to suggest even the slightest decline? You know that line from financial adverts, "past performance is not a guarantee of future performance"? If we were having this discussion 150 years ago, you'd be saying that there was no reason to expect Christianity in Europe to decline as it hadn't in the previous 1,850 years, but look at it now! That doesn't mean that Islam will experience a similar decline in the next 150 years, but it certainly makes the point that you cannot possibly assume to say whether or not it will.KP said:
Lastly, your idea of continued immigration from the Middle East doesn't really make sense. Steps are already being taken to address the unsustainable issue with the ageing pensioner segment of society, plus the increase in life expectancy has plateaued, so there will be a natural decrease in the levels of immigration we need creating a pull, whilst on the push side, no war lasts forever, so you can't say with any degree of accuracy whether there will be a sustained flow of refugees from the Middle East for that long period.
It's not "my idea". It was based on projections the muslim population in the UK would be 16% by 2050 and which EU countries would have a Muslim majority further out. It also predicts which EU countries are unlikely to ever reach a majority. Regards "no war last forever", Israel and Palestine might disagree. Which is somewhat ironic given that it started with resistance to Jewish migration, led to civil unrest and has only been fuelled further when the Jews wanted, and created, their own state.
Thanks for actually having a proper discussion on this
Another way of looking at that 700k is that it's a shade over 1% of the population of the UK, and if you scroll down this migration watch article you'll see how that number is made up.
1. Students. This is a really big and positive focus area for us as a country, and one we're actively trying to increase. Many will be in Uni accommodation so outside the general property market, they bring in huge fees, the postgrads amongst them make a big contribution towards British Unis punching way above what you'd expect. There has also of course been a bit of an artificial bump over the past couple of years to catch back up for those who couldn't come during Covid.
2. People coming for specific work vacancies identified as meeting our new post-Brexit criteria. These are people we need to keep the country running.
3 & 4. Humanitarian (which obviously blipped up for Ukraine) and Asylum (the one Braverman and her acolytes whine about) miles behind.
With regards to religion, there was no inkling of the slightest decline in Christianity 150 years ago either.
Will the Muslim population of the UK reach 16% in the next 26 years? Maybe it will, although a lot can change (and probably will) in that time. Predicting a further 120 years on from that is just not even worth attempting.
Killboy said:
86 said:
Imagine living in Ukraine imagine living in North Korea imagine being a Uyghur in China etc etc the world is a nasty place. Never been any ethnic cleansing in Europe oh wait there has. Thought Europeans were such nice people
Imagine living in the UK under constant threat in the culture wars!and
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/26158165/london-horr...
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