Two Brits murdered in Florida.

[Shay HTFC]

JDRoest said:

mikele pirelli said:

How many black students are enrolling for the Ancient Eight ? MIT ?
Holidaying ( sorry, vacationing ) in Nantucket and Cape Cod ?
I'd hazard a guess not too many, to this point at least. It seems to
me the US is run by Ivy League WASP's for WASP's.

From my experience of the States, I'm grateful I wasn't born poor
and black in Inglewood or similar.

Went to graduation at Jacksonville State University late last year, and I can assure you that the black community is not under-represented in a poor northern Alabama area. Far from it in fact.

I'd say that the only racist thing I saw was how black people (not family members) only cheered the black graduates. If the white audience had only ever cheered white graduates, there would have been hell to pay. You tell me where racism stands these days.

Its not as simple as that though in my opinion.

If a disabled person insults an able bodied person, its nowhere near as bad as if an able bodied person insults a disabled person, for obvious reasons. In an ideal world, we could say that both of them are equally human and should be able to insult each other to an equal degree, but we know that thats not the way it is, understandably.

Thats the way I see it with racism, if you get the metaphor.

Typically speaking, ethnic minorities are in a much less fortunate position than the white majority, much like the disabled person compared to the able bodied person. When it comes to racist behaviour, its not as simple as saying "the black person insulted me so its ok for me to insult him", just like the able bodied person can't exactly retaliate in kind to the insults of a disabled person. (unless the disabled person is confident enough in himself to take it, but thats another point entirely)

So yeah, obviously black people only congratulating black people is not on, but its not the same as white people only congratulating white people.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Sunday 25th March 02:49

[JDRoest]

Shay HTFC said:

Typically speaking, ethnic minorities are in a much less fortunate position than the white majority, much like the disabled person compared to the able bodied person. When it comes to racist behaviour, its not as simple as saying "he insulted me so its ok for me to insult him".

Obviously black people only congratulating black people is not on, but its not the same as white people only congratulating white people.

It is the same thing as we supposedly live in a society of equals. The equality is backed up with huge discrimination laws just incase a white person forgets.

But as per normal, the only racist people on the planet are apparently white folk.

[Shay HTFC]

JDRoest said:

Shay HTFC said:

Typically speaking, ethnic minorities are in a much less fortunate position than the white majority, much like the disabled person compared to the able bodied person. When it comes to racist behaviour, its not as simple as saying "he insulted me so its ok for me to insult him".

Obviously black people only congratulating black people is not on, but its not the same as white people only congratulating white people.

It is the same thing as we supposedly live in a society of equals. The equality is backed up with huge discrimination laws just incase a white person forgets.

But as per normal, the only racist people on the planet are apparently white folk.

No it isn't the same thing.

Yes, we supposedly live in a society of equals (that applies to equal rights). To pretend that there is no difference between whites and black in terms of power dynamics (and historical, emotional dynamics) is delusional.

Those 'huge discrimination laws' mean nothing really. In terms of having access to the best opportunities in life, I would still much rather be born white than black.

[Randy Winkman]

Shay HTFC said:

No it isn't the same thing.

I agree - the "what if the situation was reversed?" argument never works for me - the situation cannot be reversed. And as stated above, this isn't just for white v black, it's about all minorities/discrimination.

[JDRoest]

Randy Winkman said:

Shay HTFC said:

No it isn't the same thing.

I agree - the "what if the situation was reversed?" argument never works for me - the situation cannot be reversed. And as stated above, this isn't just for white v black, it's about all minorities/discrimination.

So, two black kids setting fire to a white kid and shouting a racist comment about whites - this is not race motivated?

[Shay HTFC]

JDRoest said:

Randy Winkman said:

Shay HTFC said:

No it isn't the same thing.

I agree - the "what if the situation was reversed?" argument never works for me - the situation cannot be reversed. And as stated above, this isn't just for white v black, it's about all minorities/discrimination.

So, two black kids setting fire to a white kid and shouting a racist comment about whites - this is not race motivated?

Of course it is.

My point was that black people not cheering for white people at an awards gathering is petty (and racist), but is not in the same league as white people not cheering for black people.

[andy_s]

JDRoest said:

So, two black kids setting fire to a white kid and shouting a racist comment about whites - this is not race motivated?

Yeah, but in this instance the whites are in the minority....

[carmonk]

Shay HTFC said:

JDRoest said:

Randy Winkman said:

Shay HTFC said:

No it isn't the same thing.

I agree - the "what if the situation was reversed?" argument never works for me - the situation cannot be reversed. And as stated above, this isn't just for white v black, it's about all minorities/discrimination.

So, two black kids setting fire to a white kid and shouting a racist comment about whites - this is not race motivated?

Of course it is.

My point was that black people not cheering for white people at an awards gathering is petty (and racist), but is not in the same league as white people not cheering for black people.

I think it's exactly the same, not least because if the black people in question are in an inferior position to whites it's likely in part a result of their own anti-white racism, hostility, sense of entitlement and self-afflicted poor-me bitterness. In exhibiting racism they invite it to be reciprocated. Racism is racism and all instances should be treated equally. A disabled person is normally in an objectively worse physical or mental situation than an able-bodied person so there's no equivalent. If an ethnic minority chooses to play the race card and has it thrown back in their face they only have themselves to blame. Why should they expect others to play by the rules they dismiss?

Ironically the idea that you can't be racist against the majority actually causes racism against the minority. People in this country for whom race would normally not be an issue find they're focusing on it specifically because of the positive discrimination applied to ethnic and religious (by association) minorities. This type of liberalism is responsible for a good deal of anti-minority racism we see today in the UK.

[Shay HTFC]

In my opinion, they are both racist incidents, but one is more 'emotionally damaging' than the other.

Its like if England insults Scotland, the Scottish get pretty annoyed.
But if Scotland insults England, no one really gives a st.
Thats because of a mix of balance of power, feelings of suppression, historically based anger etc etc.


Yes, both are wrong, but the actual psychological effect of the racism is greater in one of the directions.

edit: I agree though that by just letting minority vs. majority racism slide, it only creates more resentment in the majority.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Sunday 25th March 19:04

[andymadmak]

carmonk said:

I think it's exactly the same, not least because if the black people in question are in an inferior position to whites it's likely in part a result of their own anti-white racism, hostility, sense of entitlement and self-afflicted poor-me bitterness. In exhibiting racism they invite it to be reciprocated. Racism is racism and all instances should be treated equally. A disabled person is normally in an objectively worse physical or mental situation than an able-bodied person so there's no equivalent. If an ethnic minority chooses to play the race card and has it thrown back in their face they only have themselves to blame. Why should they expect others to play by the rules they dismiss?

Ironically the idea that you can't be racist against the majority actually causes racism against the minority. People in this country for whom race would normally not be an issue find they're focusing on it specifically because of the positive discrimination applied to ethnic and religious (by association) minorities. This type of liberalism is responsible for a good deal of anti-minority racism we see today in the UK.

+1
Well said

[Jimbeaux]

Long but I promise worth the read. This is about a 2007 murder in a black community in my city being revisited. It is indicative of daily life there. This happens on an almost daily basis yet there are no nationwide outrages as in the Florida case because it is black on black. It is time to value the lives more than the cause in this case. Note the paragraph about "rats" and the reader comments following the article. Note the comment about "Subsidized illegitimacy.

http://theadvocate.com/home/2083760-125/why-are-yo...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Sunday 25th March 20:18

[JDRoest]

Shay HTFC said:

In my opinion, they are both racist incidents, but one is more 'emotionally damaging' than the other.

Its like if England insults Scotland, the Scottish get pretty annoyed.
But if Scotland insults England, no one really gives a st.
Thats because of a mix of balance of power, feelings of suppression, historically based anger etc etc.


Yes, both are wrong, but the actual psychological effect of the racism is greater in one of the directions.

edit: I agree though that by just letting minority vs. majority racism slide, it only creates more resentment in the majority.

There is no sliding scale to this - it's either racism (and offensive) or not. There is no "it's a little bit racist, but hey it's ok".

Or does offending work on a sliding scale of the number of people you offend? So if you ps off a whole nation, that's bad, but a hall full of people is ok?

Accepting that racism by a minority against a majority is somehow acceptable makes a mockery of the last 100 years. Why would I respect a black man if he doesn't respect me? It's a two way street.

[Shay HTFC]

Its not acceptable at all and I'm not saying that blacks can't be racist. Racism of all types should be stamped out at all costs, but if you get offended at some minorities 'dissing' you, then you should step back and ask why it bothers you so much.

Someone calling me a honky is racist, but it hardly brings up feelings of hurt, of perceived injustice and the like. (or maybe it does with other people, I don't know).
Its like water off a ducks back. My life will carry on as normal without a problem because the general sentiment of minorities doesn't get to determine if I succeed or fail in life. However, to a large extent, the majority do get to determine whether minorities succeed or fail in life.

edit: I am not saying that one way racism is ok. Things will only improve if racism is stamped out in its entirety. But I stand by my point that black people not applauding white people is not as bad as white people not applauding black people (simply because of the power dynamics in play)

I've just realised I'm playing a bit of devils advocate. Refusing to applaud is not on, whoever decides not to do it. But I just feel pity towards them for being idiots, rather than anger towards them (but I wasn't there so its easy to say that I guess)

Edited by Shay HTFC on Sunday 25th March 21:45

[fido]

Shay HTFC said:

Refusing to applaud is not on, whoever decides not to do it. But I just feel pity towards them for being idiots, rather than anger towards them (but I wasn't there so its easy to say that I guess)

But you do not pity white people who do the exact thing as idiots? Man, that is so racist!!
Just because you don't take offence to being called racist names it doesn't mean other people feel the same way. I sort of get what you are saying, but it's pretty specific to your viewpoint - it's the same sort of logic where Guardianistas take offence on behalf certain groups (not just on race issues, but also on class issues) either out of kindness or because they feel superior to the group they are supposedly caring for. Having met alot of the latter types in my journey through life and i find them even more offensive than your run-of-the-mill ignorant racist.

Edited by fido on Sunday 25th March 22:01

[Shay HTFC]

fido said:

But you do not pity white people who do the exact thing as idiots? Man, that is so racist!!
Just because you don't take offence to being called racist names it doesn't mean other people feel the same way. I sort of get what you are saying, but it's pretty specific to your viewpoint - it's the same sort of logic where Guardianistas take offence of behalf certain groups (not just on race issues, but also on class issues) either out of kindness or because they feel superior to the group they are supposedly caring for.

I would feel pity towards whites too, not anger. I guess I'm just a loving kind of guy.

edit: My initial beef was with the thought that somehow white people are now the victims of racism in general, which is just not the case on the larger scale.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Sunday 25th March 22:01

[Tiggsy]

Very good stand up big by Louis ck about how it's impossible for a minority to offend a white male. People that moan only whites are called racist miss the point. Black people can be racist, but it's impacts is normally much less hurtful/ damaging. For example, a black kid calls my kid honkey white pasty scumy kid and my kid will laugh, my kid calls a black 8 year old a filthy monkey that kid is not going to laugh it off.

White people hold all the power in the world, it's shockingly patronising by the best way to think of
it is if a kid insults an adult, the adult needs to realise he has the power and to insult bsck is wrong, whatever the kid said.

[fido]

Shay HTFC said:

I would feel pity towards whites too, not anger. I guess I'm just a loving kind of guy.

And you should be equally offended by both, even if you feel it's not 'PC' to have a go at a 'minority' because you are in a 'majority'.

[carmonk]

Tiggsy said:

Very good stand up big by Louis ck about how it's impossible for a minority to offend a white male. People that moan only whites are called racist miss the point. Black people can be racist, but it's impacts is normally much less hurtful/ damaging. For example, a black kid calls my kid honkey white pasty scumy kid and my kid will laugh, my kid calls a black 8 year old a filthy monkey that kid is not going to laugh it off.

White people hold all the power in the world, it's shockingly patronising by the best way to think of
it is if a kid insults an adult, the adult needs to realise he has the power and to insult bsck is wrong, whatever the kid said.

It's nothing to do with being offended, it's about the repercussions of presenting a certain worldview. Racism - proper racism, not this liberal PC nu-racism which can mean anything - is subscribing to the belief that a person is inferior because of their ethnicity. It's unbelievably naive to say it's OK for a minority to be racist against the majority because the majority can't be offended. Offence is irrelevant, the damage comes from the perpetuation of the racist viewpoint which is completely independent of origin or target. Racism can never be addressed if elements of society are constantly told by liberal do-gooders and apologists that it's OK to be racist because other members of society won't be offended. It excuses racism and creates a vicious circle of resentment, inequality and hypocrisy.

[Shay HTFC]

No one is saying racism of any kind is ok.

But just like helping disabled people, sometimes extra provisions have to be provided to support those in less fortunate positions.

I agree that racism is racism, whoever initiates it, but in the real world there are different shades of depth to it, and that needs to be addressed. Its no good saying "ok, everyone is equal now - get on with it" and then leaving minorities in the st.

The hard part is finding the right balance between supporting genuinely disadvantaged people (which I would class black Americans as being) and going over the top and putting the majority (white population) at an unjust disadvantage.

[carmonk]

Shay HTFC said:

No one is saying racism of any kind is ok.

But just like helping disabled people, sometimes extra provisions have to be provided to support those in less fortunate positions.

But it's not helping anybody. Turning a blind eye to racism gives it credence and creates resentment which in turn causes more racism. How would it help a disabled person to call an able-bodied person a cripple or a retard? All it would do is cause people to have less sympathy for them and turn them into hypocrites when they demanded a level of respect that they were unwilling to give. Happily disabled people don't tend to do this and nobody advocates that they should and it's a pity the same can't be said for certain ethnic minorities.

Shay HTFC said:

I agree that racism is racism, whoever initiates it, but in the real world there are different shades of depth to it, and that needs to be addressed. Its no good saying "ok, everyone is equal now - get on with it" and then leaving minorities in the st.

We don't condemn people to being 'in the st' by failing to encourage them to behave badly. As I've already mentioned, one of the most effective ways of generating racism is to treat ethnicities unequally, which is what you're advocating.

Shay HTFC said:

The hard part is finding the right balance between supporting genuinely disadvantaged people (which I would class black Americans as being) and going over the top and putting the majority (white population) at an unjust disadvantage.

There is no balance. There is no disadvantage to being subject to the same rules as everyone else.