Supermarkets 'creating jobs' WTF?
Discussion
The Big Four supermarkets (Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s, Morrisons) between them employ around 900,000 people, which makes them together the second largest employer in the UK after the NHS. As such, they have a huge impact (positive and negative) on not just the retail sector but the economy as a whole.
I note that an Asda opening shortly in Worcester had 3,500 applicants for 350 vacancies. Interestingly, most of these vacancies are part-time roles – increasingly in the retail sector we see that few non-managerial posts are full-time. Most of the non-managerial roles are also offered at minimum wage, or not much more than that. So, the chances of low-skilled workers earning a decent wage are pretty slim because the hourly rate isn’t great and they won’t be able to do 37hrs a week even if they wanted to. And of course, as all we know, the major recipients of housing benefit are not the unemployed, but low-paid workers – typified by your average shelf-filler. All of which means that in a roundabout way, housing benefit is helping to subsidise Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s and Morrisons. Every little helps and all that…
Anyway…
I note that an Asda opening shortly in Worcester had 3,500 applicants for 350 vacancies. Interestingly, most of these vacancies are part-time roles – increasingly in the retail sector we see that few non-managerial posts are full-time. Most of the non-managerial roles are also offered at minimum wage, or not much more than that. So, the chances of low-skilled workers earning a decent wage are pretty slim because the hourly rate isn’t great and they won’t be able to do 37hrs a week even if they wanted to. And of course, as all we know, the major recipients of housing benefit are not the unemployed, but low-paid workers – typified by your average shelf-filler. All of which means that in a roundabout way, housing benefit is helping to subsidise Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s and Morrisons. Every little helps and all that…
Anyway…
Gargamel said:
Surely this is the essential nature of capitalism and market efficiency.
Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
Well, I'm not annoyed by the efficiencies causing job losses, I'm annoyed by the claim that jobs are being created (and that being reported on BBC News), when they are not.Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
What I have noticed as a recent trend is that firms - JCB and Toyota, to name but two local to me - announce job creation with great media fanfare, but very often when you drill into the the detail you find they are not employing the workers, rather they are hiring agency (usually Blue Arrow in the case of the examples given) workers who are therefore not on permanent contracts or, strictly, employees of the firms in question.
singlecoil said:
Well, I'm not annoyed by the efficiencies causing job losses, I'm annoyed by the claim that jobs are being created (and that being reported on BBC News), when they are not.
ASDA jobs are being created though, so they are right there, they just don't talk about the net effect! Gargamel said:
Surely this is the essential nature of capitalism and market efficiency.
Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
In cold hard capitalist terms you are correct that the supermarkets are the more viable model.Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
Unfortunately price is key and we're all guilty of falling for it. Small businesses offer the service and advice, consumers take the information at no cost and use it to select the right product elsewhere where they can get the product cheaper. That is commonplace. Supermarkets are the grey slime that scientists feared would consume the world, sucking the spirit out of retail, removing the fun from shopping, deskilling the sector and reducing variety. Yeah in purely financial terms they are great for their shareholders but in social terms they are awful. Perhaps the people that are out of work as the new supermarket model does not require the workforce that traditional retail needed may find work elsewhere with companies that can export products and services, thus increasing our export based GDP.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Whilst I agree with you about the lack of choice on the high street regarding record shops, I'd say the supermarkets aren't to blame. Internet shopping and technology like MP3's were in their infancy 10 years ago and are the likely candidates for killing off the record shops. If anything, supermarkets have shown what a rip off the traditional music shops were, they'd still be charging £10 or £12 for a CD, where your average supermarket sells the same product for £7 or £8 (much the same goes for bookshops).
I guess any new jobs are a good thing, but I would be interested to know the net benefit or drawback that a large supermarket brings to the average town?
I'm a bone fide hypocrite in that I'll buy everything I can from somewhere like Amazon to save money and them whinge because there's nowhere local to go to buy stuff, but it does bug me when a f
king huge Tesco's is built 500 yards from our town centre - but I don't actually know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing for the town and local area.
I'm a bone fide hypocrite in that I'll buy everything I can from somewhere like Amazon to save money and them whinge because there's nowhere local to go to buy stuff, but it does bug me when a f
king huge Tesco's is built 500 yards from our town centre - but I don't actually know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing for the town and local area.singlecoil said:
Gargamel said:
Surely this is the essential nature of capitalism and market efficiency.
Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
Well, I'm not annoyed by the efficiencies causing job losses, I'm annoyed by the claim that jobs are being created (and that being reported on BBC News), when they are not.Strong , efficient organisation displacing weak ineffective or higher cost business models.
The response of independent stores located nearby, SHOULD be to offer a higher quality of service, better or more exclusive products or in some way differentiate themselves. Or go head to head with Asda and let the public decide where they want to shop.
This is kind of like being annoyed that Steam Engines caused massive unemployment amongst canal diggers. No?
rover 623gsi said:
The Big Four supermarkets (Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s, Morrisons) between them employ around 900,000 people, which makes them together the second largest employer in the UK after the NHS. As such, they have a huge impact (positive and negative) on not just the retail sector but the economy as a whole.
I note that an Asda opening shortly in Worcester had 3,500 applicants for 350 vacancies. Interestingly, most of these vacancies are part-time roles – increasingly in the retail sector we see that few non-managerial posts are full-time. Most of the non-managerial roles are also offered at minimum wage, or not much more than that. So, the chances of low-skilled workers earning a decent wage are pretty slim because the hourly rate isn’t great and they won’t be able to do 37hrs a week even if they wanted to. And of course, as all we know, the major recipients of housing benefit are not the unemployed, but low-paid workers – typified by your average shelf-filler. All of which means that in a roundabout way, housing benefit is helping to subsidise Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s and Morrisons. Every little helps and all that…
Anyway…
You sound like you've worked in one - it certainly rings true here..I note that an Asda opening shortly in Worcester had 3,500 applicants for 350 vacancies. Interestingly, most of these vacancies are part-time roles – increasingly in the retail sector we see that few non-managerial posts are full-time. Most of the non-managerial roles are also offered at minimum wage, or not much more than that. So, the chances of low-skilled workers earning a decent wage are pretty slim because the hourly rate isn’t great and they won’t be able to do 37hrs a week even if they wanted to. And of course, as all we know, the major recipients of housing benefit are not the unemployed, but low-paid workers – typified by your average shelf-filler. All of which means that in a roundabout way, housing benefit is helping to subsidise Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s and Morrisons. Every little helps and all that…
Anyway…
I'd also take the creation of jobs with a pinch of salt. Most certainly it won't be 5000 full time jobs, but even with them being part time jobs a lot of companies policies is to hire staff for busy periods, let them go before their 12 weeks probation is up then if they need permanent staff hand pick some of the temps to bring back. Usually that would be the bad ones, by the way..
Edited by BMR on Monday 23 January 23:25
singlecoil said:
Feel free to add something...
In your opening post you say that for a supermarket to "create jobs" is not possible, because in your analysis more jobs are lost elsewhere.What is your view of carpenters who use power tools, thus working more efficiently and putting traditional carpenters with hand tools out of business?
Ozzie Osmond said:
What is your view of carpenters who use power tools, thus working more efficiently and putting traditional carpenters with hand tools out of business?
I'll answer your question as you so snidely retorted to my post.....It doesn't quite happen like that. Power tools cannot replace all of the hand worked features of quality carpentry. Power tools only speed up the mundane bits such as sanding, cutting and drilling and the art of good measuring, designing and finishing is still required. Power tools in the hands of an unskilled man don't equal good carpentry and isn't going to be commercially viable. So all that happens is that the man who has been used to manually working a piece of timber can evolve and work more efficiently - he isn't put out of business by some muppet with a jigsaw and cordless drill.
That's entirely different to the supermarkets where countless specialists, butchers, bakers, greengrocers, confectioners and so on have been put out of business and replaced by unskilled workers peddling lower quality products and piss poor service.
Traditional carpenters either learnt how to use power tools or took up magic, started a cult and then made a squillian dinari.
Im regards to job creation, it could be possible in the right situation. That being a supermarket has a monopoly in a given area. A new mob move in and start competition. No jobs have to go as it could simply mean that the first supermarket just has less profits.
Not bloody likely though.
Im regards to job creation, it could be possible in the right situation. That being a supermarket has a monopoly in a given area. A new mob move in and start competition. No jobs have to go as it could simply mean that the first supermarket just has less profits.
Not bloody likely though.
I would class 'creating jobs' as job gowth and as such one of the following:
A job that creates a goods or service that wasn't otherwise present in the national economy.
A job created due to increased demand of goods or service.
A job that provides a product or service that would have been sourced from offshore.
A job created due to an increase of exporting goods and serices.
The only way a supermarket can 'creates jobs' is due to an increase in population and increase of consumption or the population. Otherwise it is just shifting jobs form one business or location to another, not real job growth. And as suggested, the rise of the supermarkets over the last decades, with the big 4 employing some 900k people, probably has resulted in a decline of employment in the retail sector as a whole.
But it did get ASDA/Walmart lots of free media coverage/advertising.
A job that creates a goods or service that wasn't otherwise present in the national economy.
A job created due to increased demand of goods or service.
A job that provides a product or service that would have been sourced from offshore.
A job created due to an increase of exporting goods and serices.
The only way a supermarket can 'creates jobs' is due to an increase in population and increase of consumption or the population. Otherwise it is just shifting jobs form one business or location to another, not real job growth. And as suggested, the rise of the supermarkets over the last decades, with the big 4 employing some 900k people, probably has resulted in a decline of employment in the retail sector as a whole.
But it did get ASDA/Walmart lots of free media coverage/advertising.
jimothy said:
Surely as the population of an area increases due to immigration and birth rates higher than death rates, then there will be increased consumption.
So in the longer term, they can 'create jobs'.
When a supermarket opens people start using it. Where were those people shopping before? Other supermarkets or other sorts of shops. The only way a supermarket can create jobs is if people move to its catchment area specifically because the supermarket is there, but even then it will be at the expense of wherever they were buying previously.So in the longer term, they can 'create jobs'.
Ozzie Osmond said:
singlecoil said:
Feel free to add something...
In your opening post you say that for a supermarket to "create jobs" is not possible, because in your analysis more jobs are lost elsewhere.What is your view of carpenters who use power tools, thus working more efficiently and putting traditional carpenters with hand tools out of business?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff