Change in police numbers.
Discussion
Chicken Chaser said:
Interesting that a decline in numbers hasnt seen a rise in crime.
I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
paradoxically, the more police you put in an area, the more crime is reported.I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
Simply because people see an officer strolling down the street and report things that they wouldn't have bothered to report otherwise.
In these modern times of ethical crime recording, it all gets recorded.
Once upon a time , most of it would have been 'for information only'.
Elroy Blue said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Funny how this drop is supposedly such a disaster, because apart from 2004 to 2010 when Labour were on a mission to have everyone working for the state, we've always had less police than this. If such an insignificant drop has any appreciable effect on the delivery of front-line services then there are serious questions to be asked about how the police are being managed and the commitment of individual officers. It's very easy to cry 'THE CUTS' 'THE CUTS' and sit on your bum and gloat as society collapses so you can make a political point isn't it!
And herein lies the problem. People with no idea what's going on spout Cameron's b
ks. 20& an insignificant drop. I wouldn't like to see what you consider a major cut to be. In the 'good old days', we didn't have to be mental health workers, surrogate parents, teachers, marriage guidance councillors, alcoholic councillors, babysitters, taxis and every other role that society has now deemed necessary. Occassionally, we get to deal with crime.
ks, but he didn't cause that financial mess we are in. If labour had started to deal with the mess when it happened in 2008 instead of keep increasing budgets there probably wouln't be any cuts, but no they had an election coming up didn't they.Chicken Chaser said:
Interesting that a decline in numbers hasnt seen a rise in crime.
I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
It depends what stats your read and when. Late last year it wa shown that the steady decline in reported crime (whether you believe the figures or not is for this argument not relevent) that has occurred over the last dozen years or so has not only stopped but reversed.I'll wager that a decline in numbers means that people arent getting picked up as often for drugs possession, or for other recordable crimes whereby feet on the ground detect them.
A combination of that and also ignoring crime recording standards, therefore writing stuff off as crime related instead.
As mentioned above, there has been a reduction in patrols so therefore reported crime should have dropped.
The rise in crime (depending on which reports you beleive) is statistically significant. This is an extremely worrying trend as reporting methods change with the years.
DSM2 said:
FFS. You are not mental health workers, surrogate parents, blah blah blah. That's a poor response to the fact that we DO have far more police than we have had in the past, with nothing to show for it.
Police are, in essence, jacks of all trades. Their function with regards mental health is in the statute books. They have obligations. Police have a responsbility for children - see the Children Act - and it goes a lot further than loco parentis. As each law is passed they inherit a new unresourced responsibility. Police are social workers as well - that is a requirement. Then there's the duties when someone falls ill and dies without telling his doctor. In my day if you wanted to build a kit car you had to involve the police. There were moves to pass that off onto someone else but I don't know if they managed it. Broken down on a motorway or in a dangerous position on a road? Call the police. Build a tunnel and put cameras in them? Great, just get the police to monitor them. Want to have an air crash? Then please tell the police.I once had 13 prisoners in one night on five separate offences. Fair enough, it was a fourteen hour day but not only did I process all but one (see my Kindle book for details) but the following day I took about half to court and they were all found guilty.
If there were two police officers you could turn a prisoner around in less than an hour. Less that 3/4 of an hour once, and that was for GBH.
Nowadays it can take an hour just to get to the cell block and then another hour to have the prisoner processed. A prisoner can mean you loosing two or three days with all the paperwork required.
I arested two people for what was going to be murder but the bloke lived for more than a year and a day. The incident room consisted of me, a uniform PC, a DC drafted in from another division and a typist. The paperwork fitted into a folder. It would require an incident room nowadays.
You do not know whereof you pontificate.
The Police face something of a perfect storm.
Their main interaction with people with jobs is either to give them a crime reference number after they have suffered a theft/burglary/assault or to give them three points on their driving licence for committing some form of motoring offence.
The bottom feeders in our society treat getting nicked the same way that normal people treat an unexpected trip to the dentist. An inconvenience, nothing more. Certainly nothing to fear.
Both groups of people ( generally) don't like the Police much. Nor does government, certainly Cameron and Osborne who had theeir own personal experiences with the old bill in their youth.
The government knows Police can't strike. They can't even talk about working to rule, it's a criminal offence.
Add to this a growing number of willing people to try and serve their community as a special police officer working for free. Some are attracted by free underground travel in exchange for 16 hrs a month of their lives.
From a government point of view, why pay £35k a year for largely unqualified people to do a job others will do for free?
I feel sorry for them. A silent majority in this country want a police force ather than a service, that ship has sailed. Many well heeled Pistonheaders were likely appalled at the riots last year. If you are fortunate enough to live in a nice area and have your kids going to a nice school, you likely aren't interacting with the swelling army of deeply unpleasant people who look like human beings but, judging by their behaviour, are likely something else entirely. Many others have no choice and are side by side with these people.
Ineffective as they often are, they are all we have. Much of their In-effectiveness comes not from the Police themselves, they are merely players in a game, the rules of which are laid down by government. They arrest, collect evidence and get convictions....for the guilty to roam free again too soon afterward.
A chum of mine in the job starts work now at 5pm and works through till 4am. I can't think of more horrific hours to endure.
Surely reducing their number can only serve to give the oxygen thieves yet more of an upper hand. It's not like the government have appetite for building larger prisons, or smaller ones for that matter, so the guilty, the violent, the dishonest and the vermin won't be locked up any longer...
Their main interaction with people with jobs is either to give them a crime reference number after they have suffered a theft/burglary/assault or to give them three points on their driving licence for committing some form of motoring offence.
The bottom feeders in our society treat getting nicked the same way that normal people treat an unexpected trip to the dentist. An inconvenience, nothing more. Certainly nothing to fear.
Both groups of people ( generally) don't like the Police much. Nor does government, certainly Cameron and Osborne who had theeir own personal experiences with the old bill in their youth.
The government knows Police can't strike. They can't even talk about working to rule, it's a criminal offence.
Add to this a growing number of willing people to try and serve their community as a special police officer working for free. Some are attracted by free underground travel in exchange for 16 hrs a month of their lives.
From a government point of view, why pay £35k a year for largely unqualified people to do a job others will do for free?
I feel sorry for them. A silent majority in this country want a police force ather than a service, that ship has sailed. Many well heeled Pistonheaders were likely appalled at the riots last year. If you are fortunate enough to live in a nice area and have your kids going to a nice school, you likely aren't interacting with the swelling army of deeply unpleasant people who look like human beings but, judging by their behaviour, are likely something else entirely. Many others have no choice and are side by side with these people.
Ineffective as they often are, they are all we have. Much of their In-effectiveness comes not from the Police themselves, they are merely players in a game, the rules of which are laid down by government. They arrest, collect evidence and get convictions....for the guilty to roam free again too soon afterward.
A chum of mine in the job starts work now at 5pm and works through till 4am. I can't think of more horrific hours to endure.
Surely reducing their number can only serve to give the oxygen thieves yet more of an upper hand. It's not like the government have appetite for building larger prisons, or smaller ones for that matter, so the guilty, the violent, the dishonest and the vermin won't be locked up any longer...
AJS- said:
I'll take Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday at 60K.
Dog st and speeding, how hard can it be?
My local rag reports that at the latest 'Partners and communities together' meetingDog s
t and speeding, how hard can it be? the 'priorities' raised were
1. A missing bin at Acacia Court
2. Dog fouling.
3. Mini moto nuisance on a local estate
4. Parking issues outside the primary school.
It must be tough at the top.
ExChrispy Porker said:
AJS- said:
I'll take Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday at 60K.
Dog st and speeding, how hard can it be?
My local rag reports that at the latest 'Partners and communities together' meetingDog s
t and speeding, how hard can it be? the 'priorities' raised were
1. A missing bin at Acacia Court
2. Dog fouling.
3. Mini moto nuisance on a local estate
4. Parking issues outside the primary school.
It must be tough at the top.
t to atone for their sins. Then I'll go and play on their bikes for the afternoon until it's time to raise awareness of people who are parking too long outside the primary school. Pub by 4.That leaves Wednesday for me to appoint a diversity committee, do a risk assessment on my office and a few pints worth of community engagement in the afternoon.
Thursday morning I'll go and road test some of the high speed pursuit vehicles, and maybe that new Golf the ANPR guys are thinking about. Lunchtime I'll have a community steakholders meeting, at the local steakhouse, obviously, then off to do an environmental impact assessment on the BMW 550 I'll need for that role. This will involve measuring how many CO2s it produces over a 100mph cruise up to my cottage in the Lakes to recuperate and plan my second week.
DSM2 said:
Elroy Blue said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Funny how this drop is supposedly such a disaster, because apart from 2004 to 2010 when Labour were on a mission to have everyone working for the state, we've always had less police than this. If such an insignificant drop has any appreciable effect on the delivery of front-line services then there are serious questions to be asked about how the police are being managed and the commitment of individual officers. It's very easy to cry 'THE CUTS' 'THE CUTS' and sit on your bum and gloat as society collapses so you can make a political point isn't it!
And herein lies the problem. People with no idea what's going on spout Cameron's bks. 20& an insignificant drop. I wouldn't like to see what you consider a major cut to be. In the 'good old days', we didn't have to be mental health workers, surrogate parents, teachers, marriage guidance councillors, alcoholic councillors, babysitters, taxis and every other role that society has now deemed necessary. Occassionally, we get to deal with crime.
Depressing stuff.
I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
mph1977 said:
the reality is that the 'crisis response' parts of mental health services are not willing to act as an emergency service so the work gets palmed off one of three ways, Police, Ambulance or A+E ...
Mental health is very poorly funded. Care in the community is not the cheap option MPs thought it was going to be.The police service has been seen as a sort of back-stop. If all else fails then the police will do it. I think there is a need for such a unit but, of course, it can no longer be the police because there's no one available.
Hopefully this is history and no longer happens but there was a fire. They were called, they put it out and then phoned us to stand by the premises as it was dangerous. We had no one available - as was the norm - at that time of night for what was clearly a grade three of four call. I told them they'd have to stay there until we could get someone to them, but I had no ETA. I got a visit from a CI from HQ D&C as I turned up for nights the following day.
There was a situation where there were no guidelines so it was down to the police until someone decided what should be done.
As regards mental health, the police deal with such people on a daily basis. My impression is that about 30% of those in prison are suffering from severe mental problems. Perhaps a prison officer could give a view on that.
The unfortunate thing is that it seems as if no one cares. You often get the situation where no one wants to know, not doctors, hospitals, religions etc. Except, I must add, the Salvation Army, which is a sort of religion. I foudn that if no other bugger wanted to know the Sally Ann would take them. They, like the police, could not treat them but at least they'd get fed and looked after.
Next time you see someone from the Sally Ann collecting, give them a few bob. They might all be a bit nutty but they do a tremendous job. If they didn't then it would have to come out of our taxes, with all the waste that that entails.
ExChrispy Porker said:
If those were the priorities, one wonders what issues are on the backburner because they are not so pressing.
On the other hand perhaps I should be reassured. It's not exactly The Untouchables is it? ( except for the dog fouling)
Maybe its a reflection of the fact that people affected by more serioud crimes haven't got the time/inclination to attend PACT meetings?On the other hand perhaps I should be reassured. It's not exactly The Untouchables is it? ( except for the dog fouling)
Job yesterday. Women from emergency mental health team rings up saying that one of their patients has been in touch and said they are going to take an overdose. (because the mental health team hadnt turned up for a pre-arranged appointment) Word for word quote from said 'caring professional' "we told her she's an adult and it's her decision". She then says they are not taking any responsibility and it's down to the Police. Cue four police officers having to turn up and deal with a mental patient. They're not experts, it's not crime but they have to pick up the pieces. Of all the other agencies, mental health teams are an utter disgrace.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Monday 30th January 09:16
Chicken Chaser said:
Depressing stuff.
I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
Can i move to your nick.I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
Its not unheard of to spend 4 hours waiting to book a prisoner in then all the rest of the time delays.
We also spend hours dealing with mispers from kids home- walk out staff report missing they return after 1 hour sometimes 10 mins.
Then merlins etc.
Mental health the 'secure' units in my area 'lose' 3 or 4 a day.
A nutter asks to go out so they let them! One the other day admitting 'forgetting' to lock the door!
baldy1926 said:
Chicken Chaser said:
Depressing stuff.
I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
Can i move to your nick.I think the situation will get much worse.
Numbers have to be increased because as its been mentioned here, everything now takes an age to do. We have a central custody, which takes around 15 mins on avg to get to, but then takes about 25 mins to just get to the desk. It then takes a further 15 mins at least just to book in as they ask the endless list of questions regarding risk. So to lock someone up, it'll take about an hour to get them through the door. Then its 15 mins back to district to take statement or carry out a search etc.15 mins back to interview, then about 10 mins for the computer to boot up...
It's then time to prepare the file, which if you're a whizz, you can do it in maybe an hour because the computer system is so slow and complicated.
Then you contact CPS direct who look at it, maybe 45 mins for this and they come back with the authority to charge. You then can go back to custody, charge and kick them out before finishing the file off.
So about 4-5 hrs taken for a guy who has stolen a t shirt, the 3 theft he has committed this month. is that amount of time worth it in proportion to the offence value, only to get a small fine which they'll never pay back?
Its not unheard of to spend 4 hours waiting to book a prisoner in then all the rest of the time delays.
We also spend hours dealing with mispers from kids home- walk out staff report missing they return after 1 hour sometimes 10 mins.
Then merlins etc.
Mental health the 'secure' units in my area 'lose' 3 or 4 a day.
A nutter asks to go out so they let them! One the other day admitting 'forgetting' to lock the door!
There were delays in the 'old days'. I remember taking a prisoner to Bow Street - Mets, I was City of London - and having to join a queue. I was given a board and forms, had to fill in the DF, take a statement and make mine in the time it took to get to the desk. The Inspector then typed out the charge sheet, I went off with the prisoner to fingerprint/photo and the next time I saw him was the following morning in court.
Another time the SPG had brought in a load of stoppy prisoners to Leman Street nick and my positive breath test had to wait. By the time we got dealt with the chap blew a negative on the station test and the sergeant had a go at me for 'wasting my time with sober drivers'. I pointed out that he'd been drunk when I'd brought him in.
We've had May on TV pointing out that there's a lot more police on the streets, the pay of police officers has gone up and that central purchasing will save money. Further, and this is very worrying, they are going to enforce IT changes, centralise it. Just like they did in the NHS, and all the other government departments where 'favoured' IT professionals make major cock-ups.
Sensible policing is dead.
Central purchasing! One of the most stupid ideas ever. It will cost a fortune as it has elsewhere where it has been forced onto an unsuspecting state run department.
Derek Smith said:
Central purchasing! One of the most stupid ideas ever. It will cost a fortune as it has elsewhere where it has been forced onto an unsuspecting state run department.
central purchasing works extremely well in the NHS, and seems to work well enough in other local authority services ... especially for consumable items .Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff