No more cash for scrap - good thing?

[jbi]

first step... now start bloody well enforcing the laws we already have.

Take these scum-bags down

[thinfourth2]

Yet again its a case of

You see this group here doing something illegal

We are going to solve it by making that group over there who aren't doing anything illegal follow some new regulations despite the fact they have caused any problems

jbi said:

first step... now start bloody well enforcing the laws we already have.

Take these scum-bags down

Hey less of this radical thinking

[andrewws]

I cannot understand how this scrap yard cash thing has been going on for so long, if you are a legitimate trader/someone who has not nicked the stuff then what's the problem with non cash payments?? I live about a mile from a scrap yard that I have used myself, when I was there the place was up to the gunnels in (how do I say) characters that I would not invite to a dinner party.

There is not a bit of metal that is not firmly bolted (and welded!!) down around here that has not vapourised apart from car wheels!! The woods behind my house are full of old car wheels, apparently the knock £2 off for each wheel that has a tyre on it so the urchins take the wheels off and dump them. Typical of the cynical society we now live in. Unfortunatly the BIB do not have the bandwidth and the motivation to do anything about this, but I don't think I would like to confront one of these characters.

As for non cash payments, bring it on.

[thinfourth2]

andrewws said:

I cannot understand how this scrap yard cash thing has been going on for so long, if you are a legitimate trader/someone who has not nicked the stuff then what's the problem with non cash payments?? I live about a mile from a scrap yard that I have used myself, when I was there the place was up to the gunnels in (how do I say) characters that I would not invite to a dinner party.

There is not a bit of metal that is not firmly bolted (and welded!!) down around here that has not vapourised apart from car wheels!! The woods behind my house are full of old car wheels, apparently the knock £2 off for each wheel that has a tyre on it so the urchins take the wheels off and dump them. Typical of the cynical society we now live in. Unfortunatly the BIB do not have the bandwidth and the motivation to do anything about this, but I don't think I would like to confront one of these characters.

As for non cash payments, bring it on.

So people are doing illegal stuff already

How will making it illegal for me to take scrap from my workshop and get paid cash stop them?

[andrewws]

thinfourth2 said:

andrewws said:

I cannot understand how this scrap yard cash thing has been going on for so long, if you are a legitimate trader/someone who has not nicked the stuff then what's the problem with non cash payments?? I live about a mile from a scrap yard that I have used myself, when I was there the place was up to the gunnels in (how do I say) characters that I would not invite to a dinner party.

There is not a bit of metal that is not firmly bolted (and welded!!) down around here that has not vapourised apart from car wheels!! The woods behind my house are full of old car wheels, apparently the knock £2 off for each wheel that has a tyre on it so the urchins take the wheels off and dump them. Typical of the cynical society we now live in. Unfortunatly the BIB do not have the bandwidth and the motivation to do anything about this, but I don't think I would like to confront one of these characters.

As for non cash payments, bring it on.

So people are doing illegal stuff already

How will making it illegal for me to take scrap from my workshop and get paid cash stop them?

It's a difficult one as I take scrap from my electrical/plumbing business and like being paid cash as it's sort of beer money. But having to transfer money to a bank account is traceable, inconvenient for everyone but if it curtails the behaviour we see round here then I think it's right. I am afraid it's another example of the few ruining it for the many (or the many spoiling it for the few in our case0. But I am open to suggestions as to any other way it can be controlled, but its a bit like the UK border agency the authorities do not have the manpower to police it so it keeps going on.

A sruffy looking character knocked on my door a couple of weeks ago on the pretext of doing my drive. As it took me a couple of minutes to get to the door him and his mate were already lifting my wheelbarrow into their van. They had also loaded a fortic tank that I was going to take down to the scrap yard, it was hidden behind my house. On confrontation they sped off after dropping tank and wheel barrow on drive!! BIB not interested even though I see this character around the village occasionally.

It may not stop them, but I believe its worth a try. It does also rely on the honesty of the yard, but where do you find solid ground in this quicksand?

[MOTORVATOR]

Pointless exercise. The legislation already exists, and has for 15 years odd, in the form of the Environmental Protection Act to show full traceability.

If they really wanted to shut down the theft of metals business they could do so very easily by having a campaign by the EA in association with the police instead of poncing around with some of the other less important stuff they do.

This smacks more of a tax revenue raising exercise rather than what it's dressed up as.

[DonkeyApple]

thinfourth2 said:

So people are doing illegal stuff already

How will making it illegal for me to take scrap from my workshop and get paid cash stop them?

It makes transactions traceable which begins to solve two problems.

One is that it supplies the evidence to try and prosecute a thief when they are caught and two, it puts accountability onto the scrappie so will stop some and allow prosecution of others. It also means they have to start paying tax which they will take from the seller in reduced payments which will act to diss incentivise some sellers.

All in it just makes it all a little more traceable while not really impacting on anyone honest.

[freecar]

DonkeyApple said:

All in it just makes it all a little more traceable while not really impacting on anyone honest.

We'll have none of that sensible talk here, let's stick to the ridiculous assertions that it is to make cash obselete and to make getting money for scrap metal illegal!

[MOTORVATOR]

DonkeyApple said:

It makes transactions traceable which begins to solve two problems.

One is that it supplies the evidence to try and prosecute a thief when they are caught and two, it puts accountability onto the scrappie so will stop some and allow prosecution of others. It also means they have to start paying tax which they will take from the seller in reduced payments which will act to diss incentivise some sellers.

All in it just makes it all a little more traceable while not really impacting on anyone honest.

Please tell me how this improves traceability? The fact that someone has received a payment for 'some' scrap does not prove that it is proceeds from a particular source.

The legislation already exists in the form of duty of care under the EPA. As I said above if this was really about traceability they would have used the existing methods to bring some prosecutions forward.

[Marf]

MOTORVATOR said:

The fact that someone has received a payment for 'some' scrap does not prove that it is proceeds from a particular source.

Is anyone making that assertion? All it is doing is giving authorities a lead, which is a damn sight more than existed before.

[thinfourth2]

MOTORVATOR said:

Pointless exercise. The legislation already exists, and has for 15 years odd, in the form of the Environmental Protection Act to show full traceability.

If they really wanted to shut down the theft of metals business they could do so very easily by having a campaign by the EA in association with the police instead of poncing around with some of the other less important stuff they do.

This smacks more of a tax revenue raising exercise rather than what it's dressed up as.

I belive nicking stuff has been illegal for more then 15 years

But that would involve some police work instead of being a social worker

[supersingle]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Businesses get charged for BACS.

Last time I did a bank transfer it took me 15 minutes on the phone to someone in Bangalore who spoke only broken English.

Cash is the only legal tender. It's fast and efficient and works well for small transactions. Making it illegal is absurd.

Lawful transactions between consenting adults are no business of the government. If people are breaking the law the police need to get off their arses and actually start investigations and the courts take the scrotes down. It's not complicated.

We don't need more arbitrary laws which penalise the majority. We need to make an effort to apply the law we already have.

[DonkeyApple]

Marf said:

Is anyone making that assertion? All it is doing is giving authorities a lead, which is a damn sight more than existed before.

Not just leads but when the little darling is in the dock they will be able to prove that he received a payment from Bloggs Scrap. Which they cannot do at present. By making the payment electronic they make it traceable and make at least one person accountable.

At the moment plod, as always, know damn well who the thieves are and who the fences are. But cannot gather sufficient firm proof to prosecute successfully.

Lying in wait by some copper pipes or staking out a scrappie is not cost effective. Running through a series of electronic payments and finding clear evidence of a transaction that the court can then argue is linked to the theft is a good step forward.

I am also extremely pleased that the Revenue are also looking to tackle the cash economy. Certainly in London this gives a massive advantage to EU workers and allows them to undercut local workers too easily. The net result being that we pay benefits to locals who can't get work, benefits to the EU workers who are claiming to be unemployed and then also not able to tax the cash going through their hands.

Attacking the cash economy in London would certainly be a huge bonus for all of us from taxpayers to legitimate workers.

I would start with landlords who collect rent in cash, employers etc etc and make it exceedingly unpleasant for them. The nice thing about the Revenue is that they can take assets

Frankly, I'm so fed up with it I would pay a big cash bounty to anyone who grasses up anyone who is receiving cash payments but not filing a tax return or claiming benefits. I want to make it very unpleasant for people to just turn up and start defrauding everyone.

[MOTORVATOR]

Marf said:

MOTORVATOR said:

The fact that someone has received a payment for 'some' scrap does not prove that it is proceeds from a particular source.

Is anyone making that assertion? All it is doing is giving authorities a lead, which is a damn sight more than existed before.

How the hell is it giving them the lead. All this does is lead them into believing the only way to track the problem down is through the taxman. In reality the taxman isn't going to give a stuff whether the proceeds come from crime or not as long as they get their cut so we are no better off.

As I keep saying the legislation is already in place to ensure records are kept of where material arrived from. And the processes already exist to shut down the operation of anyone who does not maintain that traceability. And that traceability isn't about who it's where.

As Thinfourth says knicking stuff has been illegal for ever and a day so all it requires is the authorities to get off their arses and use the laws we already have in place rather legislating further.

[MOTORVATOR]

DonkeyApple said:

Not just leads but when the little darling is in the dock they will be able to prove that he received a payment from Bloggs Scrap. Which they cannot do at present. By making the payment electronic they make it traceable and make at least one person accountable.

At the moment plod, as always, know damn well who the thieves are and who the fences are. But cannot gather sufficient firm proof to prosecute successfully.

Lying in wait by some copper pipes or staking out a scrappie is not cost effective. Running through a series of electronic payments and finding clear evidence of a transaction that the court can then argue is linked to the theft is a good step forward.

I am also extremely pleased that the Revenue are also looking to tackle the cash economy. Certainly in London this gives a massive advantage to EU workers and allows them to undercut local workers too easily. The net result being that we pay benefits to locals who can't get work, benefits to the EU workers who are claiming to be unemployed and then also not able to tax the cash going through their hands.

Attacking the cash economy in London would certainly be a huge bonus for all of us from taxpayers to legitimate workers.

I would start with landlords who collect rent in cash, employers etc etc and make it exceedingly unpleasant for them. The nice thing about the Revenue is that they can take assets

Frankly, I'm so fed up with it I would pay a big cash bounty to anyone who grasses up anyone who is receiving cash payments but not filing a tax return or claiming benefits. I want to make it very unpleasant for people to just turn up and start defrauding everyone.

Can you not see where that falls down? The police will actually have to get off their arses and track the theft in the first place before then asking for evidence of a financial transaction.

Unless you are suggesting that the police are just given all transactions in the hope that they can decide one of them was as a result of an illegal act.

[supersingle]

DonkeyApple said:

I am also extremely pleased that the Revenue are also looking to tackle the cash economy. Certainly in London this gives a massive advantage to EU workers and allows them to undercut local workers too easily. The net result being that we pay benefits to locals who can't get work, benefits to the EU workers who are claiming to be unemployed and then also not able to tax the cash going through their hands.

Attacking the cash economy in London would certainly be a huge bonus for all of us from taxpayers to legitimate workers.

I would start with landlords who collect rent in cash, employers etc etc and make it exceedingly unpleasant for them. The nice thing about the Revenue is that they can take assets

Frankly, I'm so fed up with it I would pay a big cash bounty to anyone who grasses up anyone who is receiving cash payments but not filing a tax return or claiming benefits. I want to make it very unpleasant for people to just turn up and start defrauding everyone.

The cash economy exists because taxes are too high. It's a safety valve. Reduce taxes enough and it'll disappear.

The rich avoid high taxes by going offshore, becoming nondoms or setting up myriad other complicated tax avoidance schemes.

The poor turn to cash.

[Victor McDade]

supersingle said:

The cash economy exists because taxes are too high. It's a safety valve. Reduce taxes enough and it'll disappear.

The rich avoid high taxes by going offshore, becoming nondoms or setting up myriad other complicated tax avoidance schemes.

The poor turn to cash.

Whilst those in the middle get screwed.

[Marf]

MOTORVATOR said:

Marf said:

MOTORVATOR said:

The fact that someone has received a payment for 'some' scrap does not prove that it is proceeds from a particular source.

Is anyone making that assertion? All it is doing is giving authorities a lead, which is a damn sight more than existed before.

How the hell is it giving them the lead.

A lead, not the lead, as in something to go on, a bank account, an address.

DonkeyApple

Edited by Marf on Saturday 28th January 15:37

[MOTORVATOR]

Marf said:

MOTORVATOR said:

Marf said:

MOTORVATOR said:

The fact that someone has received a payment for 'some' scrap does not prove that it is proceeds from a particular source.

Is anyone making that assertion? All it is doing is giving authorities a lead, which is a damn sight more than existed before.

How the hell is it giving them the lead.

A lead, not the lead, as in something to go on, a bank account, an address.

DonkeyApple

You seem to be the missing the point.

As someone who has experienced several instances of theft of extremely large volumes of cable and passed on the CCTV footage of villians actually sitting in the road for hours on end stripping the gear, whilst their mates load it into the vehicles with number plates on display and even tracing the point of disposal, I can tell you there is no wish to utilise existing legislation to curb this type of theft.

If they give you a crime number on a building site that is a tick in their box and then you can claim on insurance ok.

Now how is this latest media hype going to change that in any way at all?

[Marf]

Let me misread your post and reply incorrectly.

No wait, I can't be arsed