Anyone care to bet where the criminals will be from ?

[heppers75]

Now now chaps we cannot possibly cast aspersions AGAIN can we.... I mean we are of course all wrong and there is no issue at all related to a specific group who may or may not share the same belief in the same sky pixie....

I am sure our resident deniers will be along any time soon to tell us what a bunch of bigoted infidels we truly are.

[Iggle Piggle]

heppers75 said:

Now now chaps we cannot possibly cast aspersions AGAIN can we.... I mean we are of course all wrong and there is no issue at all related to a specific group who may or may not share the same belief in the same sky pixie....

I am sure our resident deniers will be along any time soon to tell us what a bunch of bigoted infidels we truly are.

True, likewise when I hear of a shooting I never jump to a conclusion no matter how commonly accurate it might be.

[samuelellis]

Pesty said:

If they were European I guess they would have been named or have pictures of them.

Who knows I imagine they will look like these guys. but could be anything

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117865/Se...

Bloody hell i grew up with two of them named in that news report as they lived on the street next to mine. I hope they get the book thrown at them

[Marf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-england-oxford...

The men charged in connection with the inquiry are Anjum Dogar, 30, and his brother Akhtar, 31, both of Tawney Street, and Kamar Jamil, 26, of Aldrich Road.

Zeshan Ahmed, 26, of Palmer Road, Mohammed Karrar, 37, of Cowley Road and Bassan Karrar, 32, of no fixed address, also appeared in court earlier.

[Raja]

samuelellis said:

Bloody hell i grew up with two of them named in that news report as they lived on the street next to mine. I hope they get the book thrown at them

I'm actually doing some work in to this so my questions are serious.

There is a theory, that the majority of Asian men (and what we mean by this so far from the evidence is those of Pakistani heritage) involved in this were 1st generation immigrants and/or culturally conservative individuals from orthodox families with limited exposure to women from different backgrounds (or in some cases women generally from outside of their family setting).

Did the boys you grew up with match any of these characteristics?

Being of South Asian heritage myself, and not having nor known of any of my ethnic peers to having ever exploited young women like this, I refuse to believe that this is somehow genetically engineered in to the Asian men BUT there is clearly some sociological factors at play here. Identifying these factors will help us to understand what is going on and hopefully safeguard our children more effectively.

So what were they like?

[Changedmyname]

Whatever they are, it's WRONG and should be accountable.

[SmoothCriminal]

Raja said:

I'm actually doing some work in to this so my questions are serious.

There is a theory, that the majority of Asian men (and what we mean by this so far from the evidence is those of Pakistani heritage) involved in this were 1st generation immigrants and/or culturally conservative individuals from orthodox families with limited exposure to women from different backgrounds (or in some cases women generally from outside of their family setting).

Did the boys you grew up with match any of these characteristics?

Being of South Asian heritage myself, and not having nor known of any of my ethnic peers to having ever exploited young women like this, I refuse to believe that this is somehow genetically engineered in to the Asian men BUT there is clearly some sociological factors at play here. Identifying these factors will help us to understand what is going on and hopefully safeguard our children more effectively.

So what were they like?

Let's not beat about the bush they are always Muslims of Pakistan decent.

It really gets my goat and being part asian I want a distinction so all of us don't get tar with the same brush cos this lot are dirty skummy s.

[Iggle Piggle]

Raja said:

I'm actually doing some work in to this so my questions are serious.

There is a theory, that the majority of Asian men (and what we mean by this so far from the evidence is those of Pakistani heritage) involved in this were 1st generation immigrants and/or culturally conservative individuals from orthodox families with limited exposure to women from different backgrounds (or in some cases women generally from outside of their family setting).

Did the boys you grew up with match any of these characteristics?

Being of South Asian heritage myself, and not having nor known of any of my ethnic peers to having ever exploited young women like this, I refuse to believe that this is somehow genetically engineered in to the Asian men BUT there is clearly some sociological factors at play here. Identifying these factors will help us to understand what is going on and hopefully safeguard our children more effectively.

So what were they like?

Of course it is not a genetic pre-disposition but one of a social issue. Which hand do they shake non-believers might be a good question to ask too. How do they regard those that are not of the caste or religion. In the same way as in India if you are of the wrong caste you are treated as scum, is this the issue here?

[samuelellis]

Raja said:

samuelellis said:

Bloody hell i grew up with two of them named in that news report as they lived on the street next to mine. I hope they get the book thrown at them

I'm actually doing some work in to this so my questions are serious.

There is a theory, that the majority of Asian men (and what we mean by this so far from the evidence is those of Pakistani heritage) involved in this were 1st generation immigrants and/or culturally conservative individuals from orthodox families with limited exposure to women from different backgrounds (or in some cases women generally from outside of their family setting).

Did the boys you grew up with match any of these characteristics?

Being of South Asian heritage myself, and not having nor known of any of my ethnic peers to having ever exploited young women like this, I refuse to believe that this is somehow genetically engineered in to the Asian men BUT there is clearly some sociological factors at play here. Identifying these factors will help us to understand what is going on and hopefully safeguard our children more effectively.

So what were they like?

The ones i grew up with were the two brothers in that news article from Dewsbury


What were they like - pretty normal TBH, they were not first generation and did not appear religious at all, infact we laughed they only time they were religious was when they wanted time off work during Islamic celebrations.

They just seemed like normal lads, both of the ones i knew had that arrogant swagger that Muslim lads in urban areas have, as far as i know both of them drank and smoked, as far as i know they both knocked around with lasses so they were not shy or retiring. Odd thing is that they both showed a lot of respect to my mum when we were growing up and even when we saw them on the street they were still respectful to my mum and alwasy stood and talked.

Not saying they were saints as one of them has been in nick before

[Raja]

samuelellis said:

The ones i grew up with were the two brothers in that news article from Dewsbury


What were they like - pretty normal TBH, they were not first generation and did not appear religious at all, infact we laughed they only time they were religious was when they wanted time off work during Islamic celebrations.

They just seemed like normal lads, both of the ones i knew had that arrogant swagger that Muslim lads in urban areas have, as far as i know both of them drank and smoked, as far as i know they both knocked around with lasses so they were not shy or retiring. Odd thing is that they both showed a lot of respect to my mum when we were growing up and even when we saw them on the street they were still respectful to my mum and alwasy stood and talked.

Not saying they were saints as one of them has been in nick before

Thanks. It'll be interesting to see what role these played in the initial contact phase (the building of relationships and for want of a better word 'pimping' elements of what took place).

Some of the evidence suggests that the initial contact is made by men in their 20s (or in any case, younger than many of the other eventual abusers) that are relatively well integrated into British society who have an ability to 'connect' with these young girls. There are also theories regarding criminality which amongst other things de sensitises these people from both the criminality and immorality of their actions.

Oh and as already said I also hope that every one of these people that are found guilty are locked up for as long as possible. Trying to understand something is far far removed from in any way being supportive of this.

[Raja]

SmoothCriminal said:

Let's not beat about the bush they are always Muslims of Pakistan decent.

Of course both of these aspects in the cases that have made it to the media are consistent.

An important question, from what I'm trying to understand, would be what aspects of their faith and ethnic heritage (from their perspective and that of people like them or close to them) increased their likelihood of committing such a crime.

I doubt that anybody without an agenda would even begin to claim that they did this because they were Muslim and/or Pakistani.

[Iggle Piggle]

Raja said:

Of course both of these aspects in the cases that have made it to the media are consistent.

An important question, from what I'm trying to understand, would be what aspects of their faith and ethnic heritage (from their perspective and that of people like them or close to them) increased their likelihood of committing such a crime.

I doubt that anybody without an agenda would even begin to claim that they did this because they were Muslim and/or Pakistani.

How are women treated in their circles?

[samuelellis]

Raja said:

samuelellis said:

The ones i grew up with were the two brothers in that news article from Dewsbury


What were they like - pretty normal TBH, they were not first generation and did not appear religious at all, infact we laughed they only time they were religious was when they wanted time off work during Islamic celebrations.

They just seemed like normal lads, both of the ones i knew had that arrogant swagger that Muslim lads in urban areas have, as far as i know both of them drank and smoked, as far as i know they both knocked around with lasses so they were not shy or retiring. Odd thing is that they both showed a lot of respect to my mum when we were growing up and even when we saw them on the street they were still respectful to my mum and alwasy stood and talked.

Not saying they were saints as one of them has been in nick before

Thanks. It'll be interesting to see what role these played in the initial contact phase (the building of relationships and for want of a better word 'pimping' elements of what took place).

Some of the evidence suggests that the initial contact is made by men in their 20s (or in any case, younger than many of the other eventual abusers) that are relatively well integrated into British society who have an ability to 'connect' with these young girls. There are also theories regarding criminality which amongst other things de sensitises these people from both the criminality and immorality of their actions.

Oh and as already said I also hope that every one of these people that are found guilty are locked up for as long as possible. Trying to understand something is far far removed from in any way being supportive of this.

Thats no problem, as a white fellow living in Dewsbury the way i see these sort of things happening goes something like this. Again i am not condoning it but this is what looks like is happening and i am not accusing all muslim men of doing this

Young muslim lad - no religious, smokes drinks, rags cheap cars around like dem badmanz and walks around as if the world owes them everything become attractive to young impressionable white girls who hand around with they're own mates. So they progress up the food chain until they are hanging round with Tariq and beign a roode-gyal in his beemer3 all the time being told that they love her. Then she is trapped.

Peronally I think what causes this is a mixture of a few things.

1. A lot of young muslim lads act like the world owes them everything, heck ive had two tyres knifed in the past as i disrespected da cru because i stood up to them. The only thing i can think of for this is potentially cultural because boys are so highly regarded the parents tend to let them get away with pretty much anything.

2. The breakdown of the family - this leaves a lot of young lasses kicking around never really knowing what a family or love feels like - potentially easy pickings

3. Stuck between cultures. What i mean by this is a lot of the young muslim lads that walk around like dem badmanz drink, smoke and live a very western life outside the family home but in the family home they have quite a traditional upbringing so they have the teaching rammed into them and lets be honest the teachings are not exactly pleasant to women or non-belivers.

So what you end up with is a lot of young lasses walking round with no real father figure and no real sense of belonging that subconsciously want to be loved and a group of aggressive young muslim lads who know the freedoms of the west but have been brought up to belive the sun shines out of they're arse and with some not pleasant teachings about women and non-belivers floating round in theyre heads


Again im not saying all muslims are like this but this is what a lot of the young muslim lads act like around my area

[Morningside]

One I see is homeless. Well, not for long matey

[Pesty]

samuelellis said:

Again im not saying all muslims are like this but this is what a lot of the young muslim lads act like around my area

Lived and worked in the midlands for ten years.

The below was like a chant. I heard it in different factories from wolverhampton,telford and birmingham from differnt people all the time.

"white women are for fking"

because they didnt wear a ninja suit they were fair game to do with what they liked.

They see themselves as different and they belive people outside their group are worthless. Add the misogyny inherant with the religion and this is what happens.

[Marquis Rex]

SmoothCriminal said:

Raja said:

I'm actually doing some work in to this so my questions are serious.

There is a theory, that the majority of Asian men (and what we mean by this so far from the evidence is those of Pakistani heritage) involved in this were 1st generation immigrants and/or culturally conservative individuals from orthodox families with limited exposure to women from different backgrounds (or in some cases women generally from outside of their family setting).

Did the boys you grew up with match any of these characteristics?

Being of South Asian heritage myself, and not having nor known of any of my ethnic peers to having ever exploited young women like this, I refuse to believe that this is somehow genetically engineered in to the Asian men BUT there is clearly some sociological factors at play here. Identifying these factors will help us to understand what is going on and hopefully safeguard our children more effectively.

So what were they like?

Let's not beat about the bush they are always Muslims of Pakistan decent.

It really gets my goat and being part asian I want a distinction so all of us don't get tar with the same brush cos this lot are dirty skummy s.

Well said Smooth Criminal.Spot on.

Raja said:

I doubt that anybody without an agenda would even begin to claim that they did this because they were Muslim and/or Pakistani.

Sorry, but that's politically correct non sense. It's thinking like this that ends up with tarring all asians - Muslim, Hindu, Sikh with the same brush.

[samuelellis]

Pesty said:

samuelellis said:

Again im not saying all muslims are like this but this is what a lot of the young muslim lads act like around my area

Lived and worked in the midlands for ten years.

The below was like a chant. I heard it in different factories from wolverhampton,telford and birmingham from differnt people all the time.

"white women are for fking"

because they didnt wear a ninja suit they were fair game to do with what they liked.

They see themselves as different and they belive people outside their group are worthless. Add the misogyny inherant with the religion and this is what happens.

Yep as i said not all are like that but a scary amount are in my area

[Raja]

samuelellis said:

Thats no problem, as a white fellow living in Dewsbury the way i see these sort of things happening goes something like this. Again i am not condoning it but this is what looks like is happening and i am not accusing all muslim men of doing this

Young muslim lad - no religious, smokes drinks, rags cheap cars around like dem badmanz and walks around as if the world owes them everything become attractive to young impressionable white girls who hand around with they're own mates. So they progress up the food chain until they are hanging round with Tariq and beign a roode-gyal in his beemer3 all the time being told that they love her. Then she is trapped.

Peronally I think what causes this is a mixture of a few things.

1. A lot of young muslim lads act like the world owes them everything, heck ive had two tyres knifed in the past as i disrespected da cru because i stood up to them. The only thing i can think of for this is potentially cultural because boys are so highly regarded the parents tend to let them get away with pretty much anything.

2. The breakdown of the family - this leaves a lot of young lasses kicking around never really knowing what a family or love feels like - potentially easy pickings

3. Stuck between cultures. What i mean by this is a lot of the young muslim lads that walk around like dem badmanz drink, smoke and live a very western life outside the family home but in the family home they have quite a traditional upbringing so they have the teaching rammed into them and lets be honest the teachings are not exactly pleasant to women or non-belivers.

So what you end up with is a lot of young lasses walking round with no real father figure and no real sense of belonging that subconsciously want to be loved and a group of aggressive young muslim lads who know the freedoms of the west but have been brought up to belive the sun shines out of they're arse and with some not pleasant teachings about women and non-belivers floating round in theyre heads


Again im not saying all muslims are like this but this is what a lot of the young muslim lads act like around my area

I think there's a lot of merit in what you've said. The issue for me isn't really about young Asian men having relationships with young women. I know there's a legal thing going on but step in to any town/city on a Saturday night and you'll witness borderline child/young woman filled with alcohol who's being/about to be intimate with a slightly older man.

The sexualisation and dis respect shown to 'white' women that you and others have identified I also understand. In my experience these characteristics are not exclusively linked to men from these communities but are features of wider society.

I remember managing to interview someone involved in this type of behaviour. Interestingly, he didn't make a distinction in ethnicity between the young girls he targeted. Without meaning to be insulting he felt that 'white girls were easier to get hold of'. With the clear correlation between the ethnicity of these young girls and the care system there does seem some validity to this viewpoint.

What i find criminal is the intentional targeting of vulnerable minors who are then pimped to other older men. Much of the rest - the sexualisation of children, the casual sex, disrespecting of women etc, whether we want to accept it or not, are features of wider society.

I think I'll get in touch with some academics I know to see whether they'd be interested in undertaking a study in to this. From where I'm sat its clearly an issue that most of society thinks strongly about. An opportunity to objectively understand this, so that we can better educate and those that may be perpetrators or indeed victims and also addressing failings in our safeguarding structures for vulnerable young girls is clearly of interest for all of us.

Anyway, that's enough of me on here, back to the Liverpool thread

[12gauge]

Even Imran Khan is at it (in sleepy suffolk of all places)

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/bury_st_edmunds_man_is_...

[Dav_s]

Marquis Rex said:

Sorry, but that's politically correct non sense. It's thinking like this that ends up with tarring all asians - Muslim, Hindu, Sikh with the same brush.

So very true - we Sikhs have been aware of this kind of stuff going on for years, as muslims have been targetting our girls/young women for decades.

Bottom line is this: many muslim men see the females of other religions as fair game, there purely to be used and abused for their own pleasure. Non-muslims are worthless in their eyes, even though they may not be religious themselves, they still have this instilled in them from a young age.

I'm so relieved that finally the wider British public is seeing what the British Sikh community has been aware of and fighting against since the 70's and 80's.