Natwest/RBS glitch
Discussion
Puggit said:
op rated comment on Telegraph said:
NatWest sacked 1,800 highly-trained and experienced UK IT staff, the last having left a few weeks ago. NatWest now has virtually no staff who understand how its banking systems work in the UK or employed by it. All the 'work' and 'testing' is now carried out by 800 'contractors' in India. The replacements have demonstrated they do not have a clue what they are doing.
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Of course, 4 years down the line the issues; lack of knowledge, lack of ownership, lack of development, lack of innovation, lack of QA, etc... all come home to roost and the almighty f
k ups begin... with no-one around who knows how to sort it.I'd hope the other companies off-shoring would look at this and consider whether accountant driven savings in the short term are really the best long term approach to business... but I don't expect they will as let's face it 'It won't happen to us' will be the mentality.
Rocksteadyeddie said:
I'm not a big one for conspiracy theories but I reckon they've been hacked. Look at the number of large companies, and governments that have owned up to it recently. "Software glitch" my arse...
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."That explanation quoted from the Telegraph comments will ring true with anyone who has had any exposure to IT in the banking industry. Offshored, outsourced or UK staff and contractors replaced with programmers newly flown in. Add that to systems which are often unorthodox lashings together of legacy systems off the Ark and more modern front ends and it is no surprise that the s
t hits the fan and nobody knows how to clean it up.Piersman2 said:
Puggit said:
op rated comment on Telegraph said:
NatWest sacked 1,800 highly-trained and experienced UK IT staff, the last having left a few weeks ago. NatWest now has virtually no staff who understand how its banking systems work in the UK or employed by it. All the 'work' and 'testing' is now carried out by 800 'contractors' in India. The replacements have demonstrated they do not have a clue what they are doing.
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Of course, 4 years down the line the issues; lack of knowledge, lack of ownership, lack of development, lack of innovation, lack of QA, etc... all come home to roost and the almighty f
k ups begin... with no-one around who knows how to sort it.I'd hope the other companies off-shoring would look at this and consider whether accountant driven savings in the short term are really the best long term approach to business... but I don't expect they will as let's face it 'It won't happen to us' will be the mentality.
arguti said:
Piersman2 said:
Puggit said:
op rated comment on Telegraph said:
NatWest sacked 1,800 highly-trained and experienced UK IT staff, the last having left a few weeks ago. NatWest now has virtually no staff who understand how its banking systems work in the UK or employed by it. All the 'work' and 'testing' is now carried out by 800 'contractors' in India. The replacements have demonstrated they do not have a clue what they are doing.
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Who, out of the senior management which signed this off, who thought 'IT is not at the heart of what we do, let's outsource it', who decided 'these guys in India know what they are doing' is going to take responsibility for this fiasco?
Of course, 4 years down the line the issues; lack of knowledge, lack of ownership, lack of development, lack of innovation, lack of QA, etc... all come home to roost and the almighty f
k ups begin... with no-one around who knows how to sort it.I'd hope the other companies off-shoring would look at this and consider whether accountant driven savings in the short term are really the best long term approach to business... but I don't expect they will as let's face it 'It won't happen to us' will be the mentality.
This isn't the first time RBS have lost there overnight transfer jobs - the first one I know of was a genuine outage (Which tends to happen when someone knocks out the commando connectors under the floor which have the kettle leads for a bank of RAID shelves connected to it
)Several acquaintences of 10 years plus have been made redundant in the last week. Their knowledge is vast and intimate and it will be crippling once they have left (telecoms/Voice Recording).
Puggit said:
I had a meeting in a bank IT department yesterday. I saw something I've never witnessed in over 8 years of IT sales... A UK IT worker reporting to an Indian manager (working in the UK). I didn't actually realise this was the situation until my colleague pointed it out afterwards!
I have no issues with anyone being the manager, so long as they are they're doing it through ability and not just because they are deemed to be cheaper. I'm working with a few Indian imports via one of the big four and generally those that come over and are given the chance to integrate can be very good. However, they are then no cheaper than a UK resource and when their two or three years in the UK are up, they take that knowledge and experience back to India.The main issue strangling the UK IT services within these large companies is the lazy f
k-witted mid to upper level management who currently view cheap offshore resources being provided by one of the big 3 or 4 consultancy firms as cheaper, easier, more flexible and less risky because they are being provided via the perception of a 'big four' firm.They are happy to pay through the nose for the 'service' believing the 'partners' will look after them. LOL. The only thing the 'partners' are looking to do is make money for themselves, they don't give a s
t about the client or whether the service actual delivers. It's ALL about the money and the managers signing off the contracts and invoices would rather be doing that, with time to play a few rounds of golf, than getting their hands dirty actually having to manage anyone real.Where I am now, I have about 6 local contract resources who have been working on the project for up to 5 years. They know the system better than anyone else on the project as they've tested it top to bottom and back to front for years and all have an excellent work ethic. I've been told I have to get rid of them because they are contractors and policy is for everyone to be either offshore or via the 'partner' companies. The offshore resources ARE cheaper but it takes 4 of them to do what one of the local resources can do... and they do not do it as well. The 'partner' company resources seem to be unobtainable, and those already on the project are in at eye-wateringly high rates approx three times the cost of local contractors.
I genuinely despair at what I see going on, it's obvious to anyone that actually works projects that the most effective teams are made up of a small, tight, dedicated sets of people who are focused on the project and reasonably well paid for it. Unfortunately this model is almost diametrically opposed to what a 'big four' wants, but the 'big four' can be very persuasive and the managers in charge of the money don't have the experience to see through the bulls
t.A few more cock-ups like Natwest can only help to make these idiots in charge in these companies start to think slightly more long-term than 'next year's budget', but I seriously doubt it.
Jees, I'm sounding like such a cynical, grumpy old man.
When I get back from holiday, I'm moving from Natwest to :
http://www.handelsbanken.co.uk/
Quiet, discreet, nice range of branch locations. Swedes FTW.
http://www.handelsbanken.co.uk/
Quiet, discreet, nice range of branch locations. Swedes FTW.
hornetrider said:
Seems no-one can access accounts or process payments, and it's been like this for three days! Stories of house sales falling through too, nightmare.
Never mind house sales, if it goes on for another two days the Daily Mail will be more concerned about the house prices near Natwest bank machines.Rocksteadyeddie said:
I'm not a big one for conspiracy theories but I reckon they've been hacked. Look at the number of large companies, and governments that have owned up to it recently. "Software glitch" my arse...
It's good that you are not a big fan of conspiracy theories, as they tend to make those suggesting them look like morons.I design and implement Payment infrastructures, though not ever been involved with those this thread is discussing.
If it is a failed upgrade, apart from having no backout implemented as yet... it just looks like a group of individuals have made some serious f
k ups wit their change management. If it was happening at some of the other large banks in the UK I could make a very good guess at what exactly has happened.Just tried to get £1000 out of my local branch, and was first refused, but pretty much told them i wasn't going and "i'd like £1000 out of £30k .. is that too much to ask?". Then got asked loads of security question. Don't have a go at the staff on the floor, it's the bean-counters who decided to offshore their IT staff (and training those staff) to India who should be flogged - seen it first hand and it's just completely wrong on many levels.
Piersman2 said:
I've been test managing at large companies for the last 15 or so years.
The larger the company the greater the disconnect between those looking after the functionality of the system and those looking after the infrastructure, especially as the modern push to offshore everything means people are not only remote in location but remote in mentality.
My guess is that is pretty much the problem - no one person owns the problem so doesn't care, or more likely has ultimately given up caring. There is nothing wrong with offshoring per se, just the way RBS have done it isn't right. The UK-based contractors who will no doubt be fixing this f8k up will be paid nicely anyway, so they won't care either way .. unless they bank with Natwest as well.The larger the company the greater the disconnect between those looking after the functionality of the system and those looking after the infrastructure, especially as the modern push to offshore everything means people are not only remote in location but remote in mentality.
Edited by fido on Saturday 23 June 15:31
Am I the only person that wonders why people don't have contingency plans in place for mishaps such as this?
The people whose house purchases haven't gone through - a delay of a few days is unfortunate and will incur extra costs, but the sale will go ahead just a few days later.
I appreciate it's a bit annoying if you can't access your money via an ATM but why leave yourself short of money for it to be a problem in the first place?
The people whose house purchases haven't gone through - a delay of a few days is unfortunate and will incur extra costs, but the sale will go ahead just a few days later.
I appreciate it's a bit annoying if you can't access your money via an ATM but why leave yourself short of money for it to be a problem in the first place?
condor said:
Am I the only person that wonders why people don't have contingency plans in place for mishaps such as this?
The people whose house purchases haven't gone through - a delay of a few days is unfortunate and will incur extra costs, but the sale will go ahead just a few days later.
I appreciate it's a bit annoying if you can't access your money via an ATM but why leave yourself short of money for it to be a problem in the first place?
Because some people do not not have the capacity to do this. The people whose house purchases haven't gone through - a delay of a few days is unfortunate and will incur extra costs, but the sale will go ahead just a few days later.
I appreciate it's a bit annoying if you can't access your money via an ATM but why leave yourself short of money for it to be a problem in the first place?
condor said:
Who needs £300 in their wallet? I get by with £40 quite easily
There was no suggestion that credit cards were affected.
Perhaps people should consider being better organised and in the words of the late Baden-Powell 'Be Prepared'
Mmmn, good point, those silly people on minimum wages whose credit rating prevent them having a credit card should always keep a couple of twenties kicking around...JICThere was no suggestion that credit cards were affected.
Perhaps people should consider being better organised and in the words of the late Baden-Powell 'Be Prepared'
condor said:
Who needs £300 in their wallet? I get by with £40 quite easily
There was no suggestion that credit cards were affected.
Perhaps people should consider being better organised and in the words of the late Baden-Powell 'Be Prepared'
Funny how things turn around.There was no suggestion that credit cards were affected.
Perhaps people should consider being better organised and in the words of the late Baden-Powell 'Be Prepared'
When I was a kid 'to be prepared' meant having a 10p coin at all times.
Now it means making sure you've got a plastic card.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff