The Wasted Vote
Discussion
I always thought the best way of doing it would be to keep FPP in the Commons, and have the Lords decided on a fully PR system, rotating out a third of the Lords at each General Election. Saves on elections, reduces the democratic deficit in the Lords, and still allows them to be so unworried about their position (they're there for fifteen years and then that's it) that they'll vote the way they want rather than the way they're told.
The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
Ozzie Osmond said:
AJS- said:
Nearly every significant development in British politics in the last 30 years has been driven by the smaller parties.
The biggest development by far was the arrival of New Labour with a clear "win" at election. They inherited an economy in very good health from John Major's government. New Labour's legacy is a vast public sector, failures of regulation, more people on benefits and massive borrowings for the country. In comparison with this all other changes are IMO trivial.davepoth said:
I always thought the best way of doing it would be to keep FPP in the Commons, and have the Lords decided on a fully PR system, rotating out a third of the Lords at each General Election. Saves on elections, reduces the democratic deficit in the Lords, and still allows them to be so unworried about their position (they're there for fifteen years and then that's it) that they'll vote the way they want rather than the way they're told.
The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
Would that mean the Lords would remain the upper house and remain as just scrutiny, or would they be more like senators?The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
Harsh reality. The next Prime Minister of this country will be either the leader of the Labour Party or the leader of the Conservative Party.
Put the party names aside for a moment. Where do your political instincts lie? What are your dreams and aspirations? Do you favour big authoritarian Government, tax and spend, non stop nannying, pro EU, open borders, Human Rights Act, burgeoning welfare and state ownership or do you prefer small state libertarianism, pro capitalist, individual freedom, aspirational, free market rewarding those that have talent and take risks and responsibility?
If your answer is the latter, anything you do that does not support the Conservative Party helps to guarantee the former. That is the brutal truth. What position do you want to start from in 2015? A government with centre right instincts that wants to get spending under control, hold an in/out referendum on EU membership and rip up the Human Rights Act or a Government that wants to do the opposite?
If UKIP supporters are serious about effecting change, they need to csmpaign for it from within the Conservative Party, as many Conservative supporters do.
The alternative, as we have seen in Eastleigh this week, is to split the centre right vote and let in a pro EU, lefty social democrat.
People need to face up to reality. We don't have Conservative policies because we don't have a Conservative government. We have a coalition that leaves us unable to effect the policies the country really needs. We are in a state of paralysis. If people want Conservative policies they need to vote for the Conservative Party. Not help the left back into power by farting around with Nigel Farage's ego project.
Put the party names aside for a moment. Where do your political instincts lie? What are your dreams and aspirations? Do you favour big authoritarian Government, tax and spend, non stop nannying, pro EU, open borders, Human Rights Act, burgeoning welfare and state ownership or do you prefer small state libertarianism, pro capitalist, individual freedom, aspirational, free market rewarding those that have talent and take risks and responsibility?
If your answer is the latter, anything you do that does not support the Conservative Party helps to guarantee the former. That is the brutal truth. What position do you want to start from in 2015? A government with centre right instincts that wants to get spending under control, hold an in/out referendum on EU membership and rip up the Human Rights Act or a Government that wants to do the opposite?
If UKIP supporters are serious about effecting change, they need to csmpaign for it from within the Conservative Party, as many Conservative supporters do.
The alternative, as we have seen in Eastleigh this week, is to split the centre right vote and let in a pro EU, lefty social democrat.
People need to face up to reality. We don't have Conservative policies because we don't have a Conservative government. We have a coalition that leaves us unable to effect the policies the country really needs. We are in a state of paralysis. If people want Conservative policies they need to vote for the Conservative Party. Not help the left back into power by farting around with Nigel Farage's ego project.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Harsh reality. The next Prime Minister of this country will be either the leader of the Labour Party or the leader of the Conservative Party.
Put the party names aside for a moment. Where do your political instincts lie? What are your dreams and aspirations? Do you favour big authoritarian Government, tax and spend, non stop nannying, pro EU, open borders, Human Rights Act, burgeoning welfare and state ownership or do you prefer small state libertarianism, pro capitalist, individual freedom, aspirational, free market rewarding those that have talent and take risks and responsibility?
If your answer is the latter, anything you do that does not support the Conservative Party helps to guarantee the former. That is the brutal truth. What position do you want to start from in 2015? A government with centre right instincts that wants to get spending under control, hold an in/out referendum on EU membership and rip up the Human Rights Act or a Government that wants to do the opposite?
If UKIP supporters are serious about effecting change, they need to csmpaign for it from within the Conservative Party, as many Conservative supporters do.
The alternative, as we have seen in Eastleigh this week, is to split the centre right vote and let in a pro EU, lefty social democrat.
People need to face up to reality. We don't have Conservative policies because we don't have a Conservative government. We have a coalition that leaves us unable to effect the policies the country really needs. We are in a state of paralysis. If people want Conservative policies they need to vote for the Conservative Party. Not help the left back into power by farting around with Nigel Farage's ego project.
Put the party names aside for a moment. Where do your political instincts lie? What are your dreams and aspirations? Do you favour big authoritarian Government, tax and spend, non stop nannying, pro EU, open borders, Human Rights Act, burgeoning welfare and state ownership or do you prefer small state libertarianism, pro capitalist, individual freedom, aspirational, free market rewarding those that have talent and take risks and responsibility?
If your answer is the latter, anything you do that does not support the Conservative Party helps to guarantee the former. That is the brutal truth. What position do you want to start from in 2015? A government with centre right instincts that wants to get spending under control, hold an in/out referendum on EU membership and rip up the Human Rights Act or a Government that wants to do the opposite?
If UKIP supporters are serious about effecting change, they need to csmpaign for it from within the Conservative Party, as many Conservative supporters do.
The alternative, as we have seen in Eastleigh this week, is to split the centre right vote and let in a pro EU, lefty social democrat.
People need to face up to reality. We don't have Conservative policies because we don't have a Conservative government. We have a coalition that leaves us unable to effect the policies the country really needs. We are in a state of paralysis. If people want Conservative policies they need to vote for the Conservative Party. Not help the left back into power by farting around with Nigel Farage's ego project.
total and utter 100% pure unrefined bulls
tI heard that f
king muppet before the electionGreenest government ever
The only way i can convince the tory party i don't want the labour party policies is to vote for UKIP.
McWigglebum3rd said:
total and utter 100% pure unrefined bullstI heard that f
king muppet before the electionGreenest government ever
The only way i can convince the tory party i don't want the labour party policies is to vote for UKIP.
So, where do you want to start from in 2015? A Conservative government that you can help to move further right or a Labour government that will take the country ever further left?
Mon Ami Mate said:
So, where do you want to start from in 2015? A Conservative government that you can help to move further right or a Labour government that will take the country ever further left?
Chances of getting a conservative government? Well we need to find a conservative party instead of labour lite
If you belive your electricty bill should be ramped up to stupid levels and you belive that motorists should be treated as a cash cow then have a ball vote tories but don't think for a second you are voting for a right wing party
elster said:
davepoth said:
I always thought the best way of doing it would be to keep FPP in the Commons, and have the Lords decided on a fully PR system, rotating out a third of the Lords at each General Election. Saves on elections, reduces the democratic deficit in the Lords, and still allows them to be so unworried about their position (they're there for fifteen years and then that's it) that they'll vote the way they want rather than the way they're told.
The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
Would that mean the Lords would remain the upper house and remain as just scrutiny, or would they be more like senators?The benefit of that would be that the Lords would then be sufficiently democratic for members to be cabinet members without howls of derision.
Mon Ami Mate said:
That is where the Party had to be positioned to win centrist votes. The view was that you win the election and then move gradually to the right. They couldn't have foreseen a coalition.
So, where do you want to start from in 2015? A Conservative government that you can help to move further right or a Labour government that will take the country ever further left?
I am a "natural" Tory voter but I will vote for the policies as stated prior to the election, not some vague promise of post-election improvement, "maybe, if we fancy it" It is unfortunate that the modern Conservative party is so bereft of ambition it rushes to try and occupy the overcrowded centre ground, rather than give us an alternative. So, where do you want to start from in 2015? A Conservative government that you can help to move further right or a Labour government that will take the country ever further left?
I unsure who I will vote for but I think a strong showing for a more right-wing party would be a good wake up call for Cameron and Co, even if we end up with a labour government. It is not good enough any more to threaten us with the labour bogeyman unless we vote for a party that increasingly doesn't represent us.
Mon Ami Mate
As a small state libertarian, what should I be pleased with that the coalition has achieved? Keeping Labour out doesn't cut it.
As to where I would rather start from in 2015 - a Tory party that has been utterly decimated by UKIP and finally realises that they can not ignore their core voters to chase their perceived centre ground sounds good to me. Yes we would have a Labour government for a few years but so what? What real difference would it make?
As a small state libertarian, what should I be pleased with that the coalition has achieved? Keeping Labour out doesn't cut it.
As to where I would rather start from in 2015 - a Tory party that has been utterly decimated by UKIP and finally realises that they can not ignore their core voters to chase their perceived centre ground sounds good to me. Yes we would have a Labour government for a few years but so what? What real difference would it make?
Cameron just on the news saying he will not move to the right because they came 3rd. So they wont change, if any tory voters on here are expecting a move from the center you are going to be disappointed. if you want change voting UKIP seems the only way.
He looked rattled to me. What is this new angry politician we are seeing. like clegg getting all rambo saying he will not stand for his party being put down etc etc. i bet they have been coached to do it.
He looked rattled to me. What is this new angry politician we are seeing. like clegg getting all rambo saying he will not stand for his party being put down etc etc. i bet they have been coached to do it.
AJS- said:
Mon Ami Mate
As a small state libertarian, what should I be pleased with that the coalition has achieved? Keeping Labour out doesn't cut it.
As to where I would rather start from in 2015 - a Tory party that has been utterly decimated by UKIP and finally realises that they can not ignore their core voters to chase their perceived centre ground sounds good to me. Yes we would have a Labour government for a few years but so what? What real difference would it make?
This, with the reservation that a few years may be all the Labour Party needs to put us irretrievably down the toilet.As a small state libertarian, what should I be pleased with that the coalition has achieved? Keeping Labour out doesn't cut it.
As to where I would rather start from in 2015 - a Tory party that has been utterly decimated by UKIP and finally realises that they can not ignore their core voters to chase their perceived centre ground sounds good to me. Yes we would have a Labour government for a few years but so what? What real difference would it make?
Mon Ami Mate said:
McWigglebum3rd said:
total and utter 100% pure unrefined bullstI heard that f
king muppet before the electionGreenest government ever
The only way i can convince the tory party i don't want the labour party policies is to vote for UKIP.
So, where do you want to start from in 2015? A Conservative government that you can help to move further right or a Labour government that will take the country ever further left?
worried about the survival of the tory party?? say your brand loyalty in cars has always been brand Y you are due to change cars you have doubts about your current car and you read every where how good the new brand X is but on that basis you will blindly buy another brand Y!!! .Its the policy not the party we should be voting for.
Mon Ami Mate said:
That is where the Party had to be positioned to win centrist votes. The view was that you win the election and then move gradually to the right. They couldn't have foreseen a coalition.
So let me get this rightI should vote for the tory party as what they are currently bangin on about to win my vote is not what they belive in
Or in other words i should vote for them as they are lying to me
Errrrmmmm
No thanks
Mon Ami Mate said:
A load of recycled Daily Mail buzzwords
I can't think of many better reasons to vote labour than the idea that the best case for voting tory is based on rubbishing the opposition with FUD and thought-terminating cliches.Try explaining, without aforementioned crazy, what the labour party's goals and methods actually are (if this explanation is not consistent with hanlon's razor, it will be ignored, along with anything else said) and why the tory party's goals and methods are better. That way, I won't read it and decide that you're trying to distract me from something - with that thing likely being 'I have no idea what I'm doing'.
Sincerely, someone who couldn't give a crap about what party is in charge precisely because of this insulting refusal to treat voters like adults.
Edited by paranoid airbag on Sunday 3rd March 10:49
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