Peugeot-Citroen agrees deal with GM to buy Vauxhall-Opel

[PhantomPH]

Numeric said:

Put simply and no matter how committed the workforce - French car companies move heaven and earth to fill French car factories and with the overcapacity that now exists UK manufacturing will end. I was surprised that Nissan elected to keep Sunderland for new models but I still think that has time to play longer.

It doesn't matter if the UK sites are the best at quality and diligence and speed - they are toast for political reasons. It's happened before so is no surprise. The good thing is that they can cite Brexit (I now blame Brexit for the overcapacity of my stomach!) - but another reason would have been found if it wasn't that. Never forget the shareholding in these companies often includes the government and they are allergic to burning tyres on Autoroutes.

It is a shame but there you go.

Great post. I was expecting a bunch of 'because Brexit' style comments here, but yours is spot on.

Factor in that the French gov also incentivise the living st out of PSA for building in France (saw some interesting numbers recently of the cost of a production hour in the three locations of UK, France and the Ukraine - I think it was) and there is no way anyone can compete with the set up that PSA will have on French soil...Brexit or Frexit or whatever.

Regarding Nissan - there is a huge amount of political back story to that one which again comes down to 'it costs them not a lot' to build in the UK due to duty incentives etc. There are some interesting political rumblings on the horixon that would make it even more attractive for Nissan to stay put, but I am not going to comment on a public forum about those!

[xjay1337]

Sheepshanks said:

Even in Cheshire, where Astra is built of course, the Police moved to Hyundai i30's some time ago.

Probably due to cost, It would be nice for the police to use their own countries vehicles but when you can get a much better specced car for equivalent money ....

Round here most of them are Astras.

[TooMany2cvs]

PhantomPH said:

Factor in that the French gov also incentivise the living st out of PSA for building in France

Minor detail...

PSA's newest-built factory is in Slovakia, and their biggest is in Spain. Roughly half the cars they sold in Europe last year were built in France.

The French government are part-owners of PSA, sure. But only 13.7%, same as the Peugeot family and Dongfeng each own.

[Sheepshanks]

xjay1337 said:

Probably due to cost,.

Oh, I'm sure it's all above board - IIRC several (many?) forces have got toether on things like this to increase their buying power.

The point was more that the Police business for Vx isn't what it used to be.

[PhantomPH]

TooMany2cvs said:

PhantomPH said:

Factor in that the French gov also incentivise the living st out of PSA for building in France

Minor detail...

PSA's newest-built factory is in Slovakia, and their biggest is in Spain. Roughly half the cars they sold in Europe last year were built in France.

The French government are part-owners of PSA, sure. But only 13.7%, same as the Peugeot family and Dongfeng each own.

I should clarify my statement - as you said, roughly 50% built in France, but my understanding is that the Gov are pushing PSA to increase their 'domestic capacity' through incentives etc. Essentially they have a big base in France currently which is incentivised, but they are being pushed to expand that even further.

[Oddball RS]

I fear ultimately this will spell the end of Vauxhall manufacturing in the UK, the badges may be stuck on for the UK and German markets, as I think its fair to say they do better in those markets than the French product does.

[skwdenyer]

Sheepshanks said:

Jonesy23 said:

At this point you might see some badge engineering but I'm not sure PSA will bother as they have their own established brands.

It does make you wonder what the point of this sort of thing is - all it seems to achieve is taking out a competitor. Why would PSA think it's their job to do that?

PSA have stated that French nameplates don't sell well in some of their markets.

Opel may not be premium, but neither was Audi in the late 70s. Good product and better marketing will sort that out.

Vauxhall is a smart play, because it provides a hedge against jingoism post-Brexit - UK remains an important market for PSA.

[TrivsTom]

Having spent the first 13 years of my life in Ellesmere Port before moving down south, this is worrying. My sister still lives there with her 10 year old son. Might get even worse there now, if that's possible.

[framerateuk]

Sheepshanks said:

Corsa and Mokka seem pretty popular. I've no idea how the numbers look, but amongst neighbours and relatives it's Astra that seems to have suffered. People who for years bought them one after another seem to have moved to other marques, although my elderly next dooor neighbour did just dump his Jazz and go back to Astra (a 3yr old one) as he never took to the Jazz and Astra was familar ground.

I see a LOT of Mokkas around here. I've hardly seen any new Astras and Vauxhall seem to have lost out badly to the Focus in this segment in recent years.

[Smokehead]

I wonder if we could look forward to a reboot of the Opel Manta?

[Dale487]

Vaud said:

Dale487 said:

In my opinion if we lose manufacturing of the cars from the UK, the goodwill that we as British public have towards Vauxhall will disappear (as will sales). And I guess police fleet sales too.

Do people really care that much these days?

I hope the Police buy the best (value) car for the job, not select them based on where they are built.

I don't care where a car is made, I want the best car for the best price. But back in the '80s & '90s there seemed to loyalty to the British made Fords & Vauxhalls as well as the BL stuff that's disappeared. At one time the police seemed to have nothing but British made vehicles in their fleet even if better cars were available which were made abroad.

I just think PSA need to handle the brands carefully, particularly Vauxhall, as they all seem to chase the same sales & Vauxhall being seen as British & not just a rebadged French car could be helping the sales volumes.

[havoc]

confused_buyer said:

I can't see any more reason for PSA to dump the Opel/Vx brands than VAG did when they bought SEAT or Skoda or when Peugeot bought Citroen for that matter.

If they add to the bottom line and volumes then I think they'll keep them. PSA clearly feel the future of volume car manufacturing is to be making one car in huge numbers sold under several brands.....just like VAG in fact.

And they may have a point. If you can share componentry and even a chunk of the frame, then you significantly reduce/share-out investment costs. Volume also gives you more leverage with Tier-1's.

[jl34]

[quote=Dale487]

I don't care where a car is made, I want the best car for the best price.



And that is exactly part of the problem. In Germany france and Italy they buy there own products because they feel a loyalty to their country and the benefit it provides their economy.

Many brits like you have completely lost that sense of pride in their countries engineering, which is a crying shame. When you work in engineering you realise just how much talent there is still in the UK for engineering.

[TooMany2cvs]

Dale487 said:

But back in the '80s & '90s there seemed to loyalty to the British made Fords & Vauxhalls as well as the BL stuff that's disappeared. At one time the police seemed to have nothing but British made vehicles in their fleet even if better cars were available which were made abroad.

Mmm. Even back in the 70s and 80s, a lot of those Vauxhalls and Fords were built in other countries. The Senator and Granada were never built here, so the last British-built car in widespread "Jam Sandwich" use was the Rover SD1.

Smokehead said:

I wonder if we could look forward to a reboot of the Opel Manta?

It'd be FWD on the Insignia platform...

[PhantomPH]

TooMany2cvs said:

...the last British-built car in widespread "Jam Sandwich" use was the Rover SD1.

And lets remember the SD1's reliability track record...*cough*

[Vaud]

jl34 said:

Many brits like you have completely lost that sense of pride in their countries engineering, which is a crying shame. When you work in engineering you realise just how much talent there is still in the UK for engineering.

The UK remains a good hub for F1 engineering.

[Hub]

I don't know the full details, but it seems an odd takeover - just taking out a competitor really rather than adding something they don't already have or a hugely valuable brand.

Odd for GM too - surely you need a global platform, and now they have nothing in Europe (Chevrolet and Saab also gone).

[D-Angle]

I think it's likely that PSA will want to use Vauxhall/Opel as a Skoda/Dacia type brand, whether they will use UK manufacturing capacity to fill those sales is anyone's guess. Who makes Vauxhall/Opel vans at the moment? I know they're a shared platform and it's a market that PSA isn't very prominent in.

[king arthur]

It does seem odd to spend 1.9bn on something that hasn't made a profit this century.

[Dale487]

jl34 said:

Dale487 said:

I don't care where a car is made, I want the best car for the best price.



And that is exactly part of the problem. In Germany france and Italy they buy there own products because they feel a loyalty to their country and the benefit it provides their economy.

Many brits like you have completely lost that sense of pride in their countries engineering, which is a crying shame. When you work in engineering you realise just how much talent there is still in the UK for engineering.

I'm not disputing our engineer talent, it just all seems to be at the top end or in motor sport.

I looked at the MINI Clubman but due to a boot which was hardly any better than my old Skoda Fabia, it had to be struck from the (long) short list very quickly. The rear leg room in an Astra felt worse than the Skoda too. The Qashqai's boot is not much bigger than a Golf hatch.

So what is the British built alternative to my Leon FR 150TSI estate?