Obama takes no prisoners... GM boss ordered to quit

[turbobloke]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Quite likely they need to go - but what will follow, after the (very likely incompetent) politicians get to meddle more? Maybe worse to come!

How much worse can it get, realistically? And how much more incompetent than GMs top brass can you get?

You can still ask that after Tiny BLiar and Gordon Clown?!

In a money haemmorraging (sp?) contest between them and GM upper management, I would hedge my bets TBH.

The fact is that GM came cap in hand to the US government and not the other way round. Who pays, decides.

No disagreement over that, but the US taxpayer is paying, Obama isn't the taxpayer, and there seems to be some confusion there. In the UK we hear that 'the government is paying for' or 'the Prime Minister is spending x on y' but that's cobblers. The taxpayer is paying on every count. The taxpayer isn't asked, which given e-this and e-that would be simple to set up - but politicians fear it like the plague as they won't be able to indulge their ideology while claiming a mandate that doesn't exist, if there is a clear voice on specific issues.

Clearly that can't happen over every trivial matter, but spending $hundreds of billions is worthy of the Court of Voter Opinion.

My first point is that the person making the decision isn't in doubt, their competence and any claim to infallible judgement and universal rectitude certainly is. My other point is that bearing in mind the traditional rank incompetence of politicians, this may prove to be out of the frying pan into the fire, in fact the flames are already lapping at the edges of UK plc after Clown's debt splurge and the USA is in a similar boat.

[turbobloke]

Pommygranite said:

turbobloke said:

Pommygranite said:

We complain if politicians take a long time to do something, then complain if its swift.

The problem is, both timescale and judgement matter.

It's no use doing the wrong thing quickly any more than the right thing slowly.

How do we determine which of these this is? Only time will tell and then you have hindsight.

Look to previous episodes. The reputation of political competency is shredded on both sides of the Atlantic. Now if GM management has gone the same way, OK, but removing somebody for PR effect only goes so far. What next?

Maybe this will work, but the idea that people accept on face value Obama knowing more than jack about business is worrying.

Relying on politicians...NOT the way to go.

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Quite likely they need to go - but what will follow, after the (very likely incompetent) politicians get to meddle more? Maybe worse to come!

How much worse can it get, realistically? And how much more incompetent than GMs top brass can you get?

You can still ask that after Tiny BLiar and Gordon Clown?!

In a money haemmorraging (sp?) contest between them and GM upper management, I would hedge my bets TBH.

The fact is that GM came cap in hand to the US government and not the other way round. Who pays, decides.

No disagreement over that, but the US taxpayer is paying, Obama isn't the taxpayer

But for better or for worse, he's representing the tax payer. And unlike Brown, he's been elected to represent them.

[Kermit power]

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Quite likely they need to go - but what will follow, after the (very likely incompetent) politicians get to meddle more? Maybe worse to come!

How much worse can it get, realistically? And how much more incompetent than GMs top brass can you get?

You can still ask that after Tiny BLiar and Gordon Clown?!

In a money haemmorraging (sp?) contest between them and GM upper management, I would hedge my bets TBH.

The fact is that GM came cap in hand to the US government and not the other way round. Who pays, decides.

No disagreement over that, but the US taxpayer is paying, Obama isn't the taxpayer, and there seems to be some confusion there. In the UK we hear that 'the government is paying for' or 'the Prime Minister is spending x on y' but that's cobblers. The taxpayer is paying on every count. The taxpayer isn't asked, which given e-this and e-that would be simple to set up - but politicians fear it like the plague as they won't be able to indulge their ideology while claiming a mandate that doesn't exist, if there is a clear voice on specific issues.

Clearly that can't happen over every trivial matter, but spending $hundreds of billions is worthy of the Court of Voter Opinion.

My first point is that the person making the decision isn't in doubt, their competence and any claim to infallible judgement and universal rectitude certainly is. My other point is that bearing in mind the traditional rank incompetence of politicians, this may prove to be out of the frying pan into the fire, in fact the flames are already lapping at the edges of UK plc after Clown's debt splurge and the USA is in a similar boat.

I would argue that Obama is the taxpayer. I do understand your point, but in this instance in particular, Obama was elected after the problems started, and has been given a mandate to represent the US taxpayer in getting it sorted out.

The other problem I see with trying to have voter referendums on something as trivial as whether or not Wagoner should go (and whilst the money involved isn't trivial, the identity of the CEO is) is how on earth you expect the public as a whole to stand the slightest chance of figuring out whether Wagoner is a better or worse bet than any other potential candidate for the role?

[turbobloke]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Quite likely they need to go - but what will follow, after the (very likely incompetent) politicians get to meddle more? Maybe worse to come!

How much worse can it get, realistically? And how much more incompetent than GMs top brass can you get?

You can still ask that after Tiny BLiar and Gordon Clown?!

In a money haemmorraging (sp?) contest between them and GM upper management, I would hedge my bets TBH.

The fact is that GM came cap in hand to the US government and not the other way round. Who pays, decides.

No disagreement over that, but the US taxpayer is paying, Obama isn't the taxpayer

But for better or for worse, he's representing the tax payer. And unlike Brown, he's been elected to represent them.

Fair point on the Clown

As to representing the taxpayer, yes in name only.

His greater allegiances are to Democrat ideology and his own PR image.

[turbobloke]

"I would argue that Obama is the taxpayer."

No, he isn't. Definitely not. No way.

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

Maybe this will work, but the idea that people accept on face value Obama knowing more than jack about business is worrying.

Relying on politicians...NOT the way to go.

Well, as the people who are supposed to 'know' about business thave been doing little more than whatever it took for them to keep their noses into the through for the past decade and now are presenting the taxpayer with a rather shocking bill, we will have to rely on an elected leader having slightly more common sense and crucially, better morals than that lot.

[Digga]

In the broader context GM has severe difficulties in securing much funding for it's 'foreign outposts' like Vauxhall in the UK and Opel in continental Europe. GM is in such st that neither the British nor German governments can countenance a bail-out for their domestic operations because GM as a whole is on the brink of the abyss.

No amount of UK or German state aid would save their domestic plants if the parent company goes down the tubes - which I believe it now will - and now with Obama taking this stance, it's surely a vindication of this.

[turbobloke]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Maybe this will work, but the idea that people accept on face value Obama knowing more than jack about business is worrying.

Relying on politicians...NOT the way to go.

Well, as the people who are supposed to 'know' about business thave been doing little more than whatever it took for them to keep their noses into the through for the past decade and now are presenting the taxpayer with a rather shocking bill, we will have to rely on an elected leader having slightly more common sense and crucially, better morals than that lot.

You nearly had me there with the GM business management failure opening, then you mentioned noses in the trough, ended with the bit about better morals, and I realised you were referring to politicians being better in those regards!!!

Game over, case closed

[10 Pence Short]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Maybe this will work, but the idea that people accept on face value Obama knowing more than jack about business is worrying.

Relying on politicians...NOT the way to go.

Well, as the people who are supposed to 'know' about business thave been doing little more than whatever it took for them to keep their noses into the through for the past decade and now are presenting the taxpayer with a rather shocking bill, we will have to rely on an elected leader having slightly more common sense and crucially, better morals than that lot.

Who had their noses in the trough? I would look at the unions and the shop floor workers before the management. As far as I'm aware it's the pay and conditions of the workers which have gone a long way towards crippling GM. This is a long standing arrangement which the current management were not responisible for. If I remember rightly it is only recently that an agreement has been reached to lower healthcare costs.

Obama is reverting to socialist type by blasting the media with one person who has to go and who has to be blamed, rather than giving the elctorate the true picture- that GM and other's problems are a combination of many factors, caused by many groups of people.

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

You nearly had me there with the GM business management failure opening, then you mentioned noses in the trough, ended with the bit about better morals, and I realised you were referring to politicians being better in those regards!!!

Only difference is that GMs track record in these regards has been proven. I'm not expecting government to be any difference - I'm merely expecting the public eye to do a better job of keeping things in check in this instance than GMs board members have done over the past decade or two.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 30th March 10:37

[mas99]

I see it as a first step. I'd expect that someone new will go in and can the stupid union deals and slash and burn the inefficiencies.

But part of justifying that is building up the incompetence and waste to date. If you need to make radical changes and get that past the public then you need suitable justification.

[JagLover]

10 Pence Short said:

Kermit power said:

elster said:

But surely if you are singling out one person, then you are saying the reason for the failing business is due to that man.

Which is complete BS. The whole episode hasn't actually changed anything, other than sold a few newspapers.

He is the CEO.

When he took the position in June 2000, GM's shares were worth $60 each. On Wednesday last week, it was down to $1.27.

Wagoner has been paid what, $10M or so per annum for that little result?

Sure, he's not the only person to blame, but he's the figurehead. Part of his job description is to take the blame if the st hits the fan, and fans don't get much sttier than GM's current ventilation arrangements.

I may be wrong, but a lot of GMs problems stemmed from old pay and conditions agreements with unions that were costing the business more than it could afford. This situation could have been ok, were it not for the oil price rises pricing people out of GM products and into more efficient competition (a problem GM have not been alone in).

For one person to shoulder the blame for two circumstances which were difficult to reverse, seemingly without any assurance that someone more capable will be installed, seems to me to be more about finding a scapegoat when GM is allowed to fail, than about saving it.

All of which makes me think Obama is another New Labour; installed by the US electorate as a sea change, but without any real quality of substance underneath to carry through with the promises.

Agreed to some extent.

Perhaps a bigger culprit are the unions which refused until recently to let the american car makers make necessary adjustments to pay & Benefits.

[turbobloke]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

You nearly had me there with the GM business management failure opening, then you mentioned noses in the trough, ended with the bit about better morals, and I realised you were referring to politicians being better in those regards!!!

Only difference is that GMs track record in these regards has been proven

Please, stop digging, that hole looks eeeeeeeeeenormous

[900T-R]

10 Pence Short said:

Who had their noses in the trough? I would look at the unions and the shop floor workers before the management. As far as I'm aware it's the pay and conditions of the workers which have gone a long way towards crippling GM.

The conditions that were the result of agreements between the unions and GM were serviceable and sustainable at the time they were made, and they would have been if GM had not allowed to let its market share slide by a combination of pure arrogance and sheer incompetence.

Of course there's the deeper issue of factory workers expecting to sustain a luxury lifestyle for them and theirs while their skill set is being replicated by any number of Chinese who will do the same for peanuts, but that's only mirrored by top brass management who expect to be renumerated with dozens of millions for what can only be described as shocking underperformance - i.e. it's a nationwide problem where the US as a whole is expecting to continue to live in fairy land.

[turbobloke]

JagLover said:

Perhaps a bigger culprit are the unions which refused until recently to let the american car makers make necessary adjustments to pay & Benefits.

Arthur Fonzarelli said:

Exactamundo

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

Please, stop digging, that hole looks eeeeeeeeeenormous

Um, it's GM who sought intervention. To complain about the level of competency of such intervention when 'private enterprise' have screwed up to the most grotesque amounts I've seen in my lifetime when the alternative is immediate bankruptcy (an alternative that TBH I would prefer)... well, words fail me.

[turbobloke]

900T-R said:

turbobloke said:

Please, stop digging, that hole looks eeeeeeeeeenormous

Um, it's GM who sought intervention. To complain about the level of competency of such intervention when 'private enterprise' have screwed up to the most grotesque amounts I've seen in my lifetime when the alternative is immediate bankruptcy (an alternative that TBH I would prefer)... well, words fail me.

But...but...as per JagLover, those incompetent politicos stood around with their snouts in the trough and their hands over their eyes and ears while Unions mugged the company.

Where was Obambi and his Democrat ilk? Where were their PR words getting Union bosses sacked?

Cmon.

[Fittster]

turbobloke said:

Interference, same old for these types, but are the people interfering any more competent than those they're interfering with? Probably not. Over here, definitely not.

The government should step away from industry, let the market decide on GM and its management.

[900T-R]

turbobloke said:

But...but...as per JagLover, those incompetent politicos stood around with their snouts in the trough and their hands over their eyes and ears while Unions mugged the company.

If you're just about the biggest company in the world in a country that values free enterprise and you allow yourself to be mugged by unions, you have only got yourself to blame.

turbobloke said:

Where was Obambi and his Democrat ilk?

Obama hasn't been around for long enough to have had any real influence on the mess that's been made over the course of decades, has he? He's inherited a massive amount of problems and is unlikely to come out smelling of roses no matter which course he'll be taking.

turbobloke said:

Where were their PR words getting Union bosses sacked?

Cmon.

AFAIK the Unions haven't been knocking on the goverments door demanding a couple of dozen billions or else...