Lord Ashcroft

Author
Discussion

Victor McDade

4,395 posts

183 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
MX7 said:
He was entitled to do what he did. You might question it morally, but no law was broken, and anyone in his position would have done the same.
A bit like what most of the MPs did with their expenses then?

Alex

9,975 posts

285 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Anyone who chose to pay tax (especially £3.4 million) when they could legally avoid it would be an idiot. Ashcroft clearly is not an idiot.

Oakey

27,610 posts

217 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Victor McDade said:
MX7 said:
He was entitled to do what he did. You might question it morally, but no law was broken, and anyone in his position would have done the same.
A bit like what most of the MPs did with their expenses then?
Those same MPs are were up in arms over Fred Goodwins contracted severance package and banged on unrelentlessly about morals, those MPs? The ones who claimed for whatever they could, no matter how irrelevent to their job?

TankRizzo

7,307 posts

194 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Don't really see the issue.

There was no rule against what he did. It's his money, he can do what he wants with it. Doesn't matter what he "morally" should have done, it's his cash.

Was he supposed to say, oh hang on, I'll wait another couple of days so I can be hit for 3 million quid in tax?

TankRizzo

7,307 posts

194 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Victor McDade said:
MX7 said:
He was entitled to do what he did. You might question it morally, but no law was broken, and anyone in his position would have done the same.
A bit like what most of the MPs did with their expenses then?
MPs were ripping off the taxpayer whilst technically within the "rules". That's where the moral argument comes in.

It was Ashcroft's own money that he didn't have to pay tax on.

MX7

7,902 posts

175 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Victor McDade said:
MX7 said:
He was entitled to do what he did. You might question it morally, but no law was broken, and anyone in his position would have done the same.
A bit like what most of the MPs did with their expenses then?
No, not really. Many MPs acted completely outside of the guidelines set out in the Green Book, and three are actually going to court over it. There's no comparison.

Victor McDade

4,395 posts

183 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
TankRizzo said:
Victor McDade said:
MX7 said:
He was entitled to do what he did. You might question it morally, but no law was broken, and anyone in his position would have done the same.
A bit like what most of the MPs did with their expenses then?
MPs were ripping off the taxpayer whilst technically within the "rules". That's where the moral argument comes in.

It was Ashcroft's own money that he didn't have to pay tax on.
If Ashcroft wasn't a politician I'd agree with you. But you can't have a party lecture the rest of us on tax avoidance, a completely legal process, yet one of their own is doing exactly what Dave and Nick are telling us is wrong.

Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
The comparison is clearly with someone like Dianne Abbot sending her kids to Private Schools while official opposing private education.

Phil1

621 posts

283 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Fittster said:
The comparison is clearly with someone like Dianne Abbot sending her kids to Private Schools while official opposing private education.
Not really. Dianne Abbot didn't agree to send her kids to state school and then get a private tutor in, she avoided state school in its entirety. Your comparison would be closer if Ashcroft hadn't moved to be a UK tax payer at all.

I don't see how with your interpretation he can possibly pass the test. Why stop at this tax? Should he buy more things so he pays more VAT? Should he move house more often so he pays more stamp duty? Should he cash in any ISAs he has and move them into tax paying accounts? Should he take up smoking? Yes these are trivial examples, but why don't you define for us just how much unnecessary tax he has to pay for you to be happy?

BOR

4,718 posts

256 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Phil1 said:
Yes these are trivial examples, but why don't you define for us just how much unnecessary tax he has to pay for you to be happy?
No need for Fittster to define how much. Cameron has already defined that MPs/Lords pay tax on world wide income. Ashcroft disagrees with this and has taken steps to ensure he doesn't have to comply with Cameron's wishes.

Edited by BOR on Monday 27th September 14:32

MX7

7,902 posts

175 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Fittster said:
The comparison is clearly with someone like Dianne Abbot sending her kids to Private Schools while official opposing private education.
I presume that was directed at my comment? The difference is that what Abbott did was complete hypocrisy. She said she opposed public schools, and then chose to use one. Ashcroft hasn't said that we shouldn't be creative with our tax affairs. The Tories might have, but not him directly.

Phil1

621 posts

283 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
BOR said:
Phil1 said:
Yes these are trivial examples, but why don't you define for us just how much unnecessary tax he has to pay for you to be happy?
No need for Fittster to define how much. Cameron has already defined that MPs/Lords pay tax on world wide income. Ashcroft disagrees with this and has taken steps to ensure he doesn't have to comply with Cameron's wishes.

Edited by BOR on Monday 27th September 14:32
I must have missed something... did he move something overseas whilst retaining ownership and income to avoid this tax, or did he give away his assets?

Of course Fittster has to define where he thinks the tax liability stops. He claims the legal requirement is just not enough. What is enough?

BOR

4,718 posts

256 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
You've missed something. He gave his assets away. To his kid. One day before the law changed.

Why do you think he did that ?

If his government is lecturing the citizens to play by the rules, then members of the government are required to comply with those rules, in spirit, as well as legally. Anything else is hipocrisy.

5potTurbo

12,581 posts

169 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
OP: If it was you, would you have acted the same as Lord Ashcroft or simply asked HMRC, "To whom should I make the cheque payable?" nono

Good tax advice, IMO! readit

And you can't trust any politician or party. That's why they do what they do.

Gets off soapbox

MX7

7,902 posts

175 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
BOR said:
You've missed something. He gave his assets away. To his kid. One day before the law changed.

Why do you think he did that ?

If his government is lecturing the citizens to play by the rules, then members of the government are required to comply with those rules, in spirit, as well as legally. Anything else is hipocrisy.
So Ashcroft has to adhere to some saintly moral code?! Anyone else would have done what he did.


Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
MX7 said:
Fittster said:
The comparison is clearly with someone like Dianne Abbot sending her kids to Private Schools while official opposing private education.
I presume that was directed at my comment? The difference is that what Abbott did was complete hypocrisy. She said she opposed public schools, and then chose to use one. Ashcroft hasn't said that we shouldn't be creative with our tax affairs. The Tories might have, but not him directly.
He funds that party so has considerable influence. If he disagrees with the policy let's hear it, he must have bought that seat in the house of Lords for a reason.

Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Phil1 said:
Of course Fittster has to define where he thinks the tax liability stops. He claims the legal requirement is just not enough. What is enough?
He as party of the conservative party preaches tax avoidance is wrong, then avoids tax himself. Either stop avoiding UK taxes or come out against the Conservative party policy.

BOR

4,718 posts

256 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
This law or rule, was badly implemented. It should have been introduced retrospectively to avoid giving peole like Aschroft the chance to slither through it.

I admit, I would have assumed MPs/Lords would abide by the spirit of the new legislation, so I'm not blaming Cameron for giving his boss the chance to cheat on it.

Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
MX7 said:
BOR said:
You've missed something. He gave his assets away. To his kid. One day before the law changed.

Why do you think he did that ?

If his government is lecturing the citizens to play by the rules, then members of the government are required to comply with those rules, in spirit, as well as legally. Anything else is hipocrisy.
So Ashcroft has to adhere to some saintly moral code?! Anyone else would have done what he did.
That code is Conservative party policy, why shouldn't he follow party policy?

TankRizzo

7,307 posts

194 months

Monday 27th September 2010
quotequote all
Victor McDade said:
If Ashcroft wasn't a politician I'd agree with you. But you can't have a party lecture the rest of us on tax avoidance, a completely legal process, yet one of their own is doing exactly what Dave and Nick are telling us is wrong.
Surely "tax avoidance" is finding loopholes in the law and exploiting them so you don't pay tax.
At the time of Ashcroft moving his money, there was no law.

It's a bit like saying on the 1st of January, all TV licences will cost £400. And you buy your licence on 31st Dec to avoid paying the higher price.

Had Ashcroft waited until the law came into effect and then took advantage of a loophole then I would agree with you. But the law is the law.